4 ms·

This is a false narrative, and does more harm than good. In this industry anyone can gain experience. The amount of self taught developers is evidence of it. T

This is a false narrative, and does more harm than good. In this industry anyone can gain experience. The amount of self taught developers is evidence of it. The onus is on YOU to go out and make it happen. By saying minorities and women need this help is racist/sexist itself. The only way they can succeed is by handouts? Thanks but no thanks. I'm a mixed race woman who is an engineer and I'm offended by this notion. I didn't get to my position by handouts, I earned it. And because of that I'm not making 70% of what my male cohorts are either, trust me.

gdulli 10y ago
I think that's oversimplifying. I'm self-taught and I took it on myself to learn rather than go to an expensive school, and I've had a successful career. It wasn't handed to me and I totally get that you should take responsibility for your own success. But there's more than one factor. I grew up white and not poor, my family had enough money for a computer and internet access. My father was an engineer and took me to science museums. I had enough money to buy expensive books about programming. I may be responsible for my own success but I was also completely set up for it, and that matters too. If I'd grown up poor, I doubt I'd have dragged myself to the library every day to use their free computers. I've worked hard and I believe I deserve my success, but I've also been privileged.
- dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
  Maybe it's not so much that I'm oversimplifying as others are over complicating the issue. It's funny you bring up dragging yourself to a library, because that's exactly what I did in the early 2000s. My family did not have a computer. I'm not as unusual as you might think. My social circle is full of successful minorities, with similar stories. When we go out downtown for drinks if we talk about work we're usually talking about opportunities and things we're working on, not making excuses and blaming white men for things. That's why this stuff bewilders me. I know that certain white people being "tolerant" and "helping" us makes them feel good inside, and gives them a feeling of empowerment. That's fine. Just know that not all people of color are thrilled about it. It's condescending and counter productive. Of course there is discrimination in business, but if that's all you focus on you will fail. The rules apply to all races, nationalities, and genders: if you focus on why you can't do something, you'll fail. If you focus on why you CAN magic things happen.
  - gdulli 10y ago
    For what it's worth, when I think of people who had to work harder than I did to get to the same place, I don't assume they're bitter and blame white men. I don't assume they need hand-holding in order to succeed and I don't think they should be given jobs they don't deserve. I've passed on women of color in job interviews before without feeling guilty. But there are people who lack the opportunity they do deserve, whether it's conscious bias or unconscious bias or just circumstances in life. We can try to do something to adjust the playing field instead of ignore that. I've worked with a lot of mediocre white dudes. There's plenty of opportunity to start displacing those types based on merit and not charity or guilt.
    - dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
      Fair enough, I can respect that and it sounds like we mostly agree. I think some adjustment may be needed, but since this has become so political I fear things will be taken so far in one direction that the backlash will come back and punish us all.

gdulli 10y ago

I think that's oversimplifying. I'm self-taught and I took it on myself to learn rather than go to an expensive school, and I've had a successful career. It wasn't handed to me and I totally get that you should take responsibility for your own success. But there's more than one factor. I grew up white and not poor, my family had enough money for a computer and internet access. My father was an engineer and took me to science museums. I had enough money to buy expensive books about programming. I may be responsible for my own success but I was also completely set up for it, and that matters too. If I'd grown up poor, I doubt I'd have dragged myself to the library every day to use their free computers. I've worked hard and I believe I deserve my success, but I've also been privileged.

dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
Maybe it's not so much that I'm oversimplifying as others are over complicating the issue. It's funny you bring up dragging yourself to a library, because that's exactly what I did in the early 2000s. My family did not have a computer. I'm not as unusual as you might think. My social circle is full of successful minorities, with similar stories. When we go out downtown for drinks if we talk about work we're usually talking about opportunities and things we're working on, not making excuses and blaming white men for things. That's why this stuff bewilders me. I know that certain white people being "tolerant" and "helping" us makes them feel good inside, and gives them a feeling of empowerment. That's fine. Just know that not all people of color are thrilled about it. It's condescending and counter productive. Of course there is discrimination in business, but if that's all you focus on you will fail. The rules apply to all races, nationalities, and genders: if you focus on why you can't do something, you'll fail. If you focus on why you CAN magic things happen.
- gdulli 10y ago
  For what it's worth, when I think of people who had to work harder than I did to get to the same place, I don't assume they're bitter and blame white men. I don't assume they need hand-holding in order to succeed and I don't think they should be given jobs they don't deserve. I've passed on women of color in job interviews before without feeling guilty. But there are people who lack the opportunity they do deserve, whether it's conscious bias or unconscious bias or just circumstances in life. We can try to do something to adjust the playing field instead of ignore that. I've worked with a lot of mediocre white dudes. There's plenty of opportunity to start displacing those types based on merit and not charity or guilt.
  - dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
    Fair enough, I can respect that and it sounds like we mostly agree. I think some adjustment may be needed, but since this has become so political I fear things will be taken so far in one direction that the backlash will come back and punish us all.