5 ms·

No, it isn't. White and asian men are likely to be more qualified because they have had more opportunities to gain experience. The race and gender gap won't clo

by Kluny 10y ago

No, it isn't. White and asian men are likely to be more qualified because they have had more opportunities to gain experience. The race and gender gap won't close without concerted effort to give similar opportunities to women and people of color. Edit: I recently read that when women were first granted the vote in Denmark, they immediately introduced quotas to help more women become politicians so there would be equal representation of both sexes. A few decades after that, it was found that gender parity existed and the quotas weren't needed anymore, so now they're talking about repealing them. I hope for a similar future where affirmative action in college admissions, or gender-inclusion hiring policies aren't needed anymore because they worked.

pc86 10y ago
Shouldn't the goal then be to create an environment where white and Asian men are not more qualified? Through education, etc as opposed to giving a job to someone less qualified because another applicant because they happen to check different boxes on the Census.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  Depends. It's been shown that one of the most effective ways of creating an environment is by offering role models. The real purpose of affirmative action is not to benefit a minority at the expense of a non-minority, those are just side-effects. It's to create role models for kids 15-30 years down the line.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- falloutx 10y ago
  Yeah that kind of my point is. If you're giving a job to someone(at the expense of someone more qualified) because of his/her/their race/ethnicity, thats special treatment.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  You've just shown your bias by assuming the less represented candidates are less qualified.
- Kluny 10y ago
  More women and people of color will pursue the necessary education under their own power when it becomes obvious that they can get jobs with it without having to worry about unemployment due to discrimination. At the moment computer science is often considered a bad bet for women (for example) because they see so few women in the industry that they know it will be an uphill battle to pay off their very expensive degree.
  - dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
    You are somewhat correct, as it applies to me. I didn't wait for magical liberal policies to fix everything. I pursued this path knowing I was at a disadvantage so I became so good at what I do they can't possibly ignore me. It worked.
  - pc86 10y ago
    So "give less qualified people jobs because of arbitrary characteristics and people who look like them will become qualified" rather than "hire the most qualified person regardless of any arbitrary characteristics, and people will try to be the most qualified." > At the moment computer science is often considered a bad bet for women (for example) because they see so few women in the industry that they know it will be an uphill battle to pay off their very expensive degree. Nonsense. Things like your comment show that as long as you can pass the bar of "not unqualified" you're more likely to get a job if you're a woman, or a person of color, or whatever random immutable attribute someone is trying to pump up. I work with a bunch of white and Indian dudes. I'd love for the pool of my colleagues to be more diverse. But I'd rather work with 100% qualified Indian men than a group of less qualified people who perfectly match the gender and racial makeup of the US.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Sadly, so often 'qualified' is a subjective thing. And folks just love to imagine that people who are just like themselves seem more qualified. So we get cliques. And its hard to break into one. Also, no need for the strawman of "perfectly match". We could all start with making the effort to find actual, qualified people who help diversify. They're out there.
supersaiyanverx 10y ago
The gaps are due to different genetic backgrounds. It's time for the left to drop these massively wasteful and misguided social engineering experiments.
tn13 10y ago
> they have had more opportunities to gain experience How do you make that conclusion ? And isn't it unfair to them that they are denied the benefit despite being more qualified ?
- st3v3r 10y ago
  You're making the assumption that they are more qualified.
dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
This is a false narrative, and does more harm than good. In this industry anyone can gain experience. The amount of self taught developers is evidence of it. The onus is on YOU to go out and make it happen. By saying minorities and women need this help is racist/sexist itself. The only way they can succeed is by handouts? Thanks but no thanks. I'm a mixed race woman who is an engineer and I'm offended by this notion. I didn't get to my position by handouts, I earned it. And because of that I'm not making 70% of what my male cohorts are either, trust me.
- gdulli 10y ago
  I think that's oversimplifying. I'm self-taught and I took it on myself to learn rather than go to an expensive school, and I've had a successful career. It wasn't handed to me and I totally get that you should take responsibility for your own success. But there's more than one factor. I grew up white and not poor, my family had enough money for a computer and internet access. My father was an engineer and took me to science museums. I had enough money to buy expensive books about programming. I may be responsible for my own success but I was also completely set up for it, and that matters too. If I'd grown up poor, I doubt I'd have dragged myself to the library every day to use their free computers. I've worked hard and I believe I deserve my success, but I've also been privileged.
  - dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
    Maybe it's not so much that I'm oversimplifying as others are over complicating the issue. It's funny you bring up dragging yourself to a library, because that's exactly what I did in the early 2000s. My family did not have a computer. I'm not as unusual as you might think. My social circle is full of successful minorities, with similar stories. When we go out downtown for drinks if we talk about work we're usually talking about opportunities and things we're working on, not making excuses and blaming white men for things. That's why this stuff bewilders me. I know that certain white people being "tolerant" and "helping" us makes them feel good inside, and gives them a feeling of empowerment. That's fine. Just know that not all people of color are thrilled about it. It's condescending and counter productive. Of course there is discrimination in business, but if that's all you focus on you will fail. The rules apply to all races, nationalities, and genders: if you focus on why you can't do something, you'll fail. If you focus on why you CAN magic things happen.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by Kluny 10y ago

pc86 10y ago

Shouldn't the goal then be to create an environment where white and Asian men are not more qualified? Through education, etc as opposed to giving a job to someone less qualified because another applicant because they happen to check different boxes on the Census.

RodericDay 10y ago
Depends. It's been shown that one of the most effective ways of creating an environment is by offering role models. The real purpose of affirmative action is not to benefit a minority at the expense of a non-minority, those are just side-effects. It's to create role models for kids 15-30 years down the line.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
falloutx 10y ago
Yeah that kind of my point is. If you're giving a job to someone(at the expense of someone more qualified) because of his/her/their race/ethnicity, thats special treatment.
st3v3r 10y ago
You've just shown your bias by assuming the less represented candidates are less qualified.
Kluny 10y ago
More women and people of color will pursue the necessary education under their own power when it becomes obvious that they can get jobs with it without having to worry about unemployment due to discrimination. At the moment computer science is often considered a bad bet for women (for example) because they see so few women in the industry that they know it will be an uphill battle to pay off their very expensive degree.
- dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
  You are somewhat correct, as it applies to me. I didn't wait for magical liberal policies to fix everything. I pursued this path knowing I was at a disadvantage so I became so good at what I do they can't possibly ignore me. It worked.
- pc86 10y ago
  So "give less qualified people jobs because of arbitrary characteristics and people who look like them will become qualified" rather than "hire the most qualified person regardless of any arbitrary characteristics, and people will try to be the most qualified." > At the moment computer science is often considered a bad bet for women (for example) because they see so few women in the industry that they know it will be an uphill battle to pay off their very expensive degree. Nonsense. Things like your comment show that as long as you can pass the bar of "not unqualified" you're more likely to get a job if you're a woman, or a person of color, or whatever random immutable attribute someone is trying to pump up. I work with a bunch of white and Indian dudes. I'd love for the pool of my colleagues to be more diverse. But I'd rather work with 100% qualified Indian men than a group of less qualified people who perfectly match the gender and racial makeup of the US.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Sadly, so often 'qualified' is a subjective thing. And folks just love to imagine that people who are just like themselves seem more qualified. So we get cliques. And its hard to break into one. Also, no need for the strawman of "perfectly match". We could all start with making the effort to find actual, qualified people who help diversify. They're out there.

supersaiyanverx 10y ago

The gaps are due to different genetic backgrounds. It's time for the left to drop these massively wasteful and misguided social engineering experiments.

tn13 10y ago

> they have had more opportunities to gain experience How do you make that conclusion ? And isn't it unfair to them that they are denied the benefit despite being more qualified ?

st3v3r 10y ago
You're making the assumption that they are more qualified.

dotnetisnotdead 10y ago

This is a false narrative, and does more harm than good. In this industry anyone can gain experience. The amount of self taught developers is evidence of it. The onus is on YOU to go out and make it happen. By saying minorities and women need this help is racist/sexist itself. The only way they can succeed is by handouts? Thanks but no thanks. I'm a mixed race woman who is an engineer and I'm offended by this notion. I didn't get to my position by handouts, I earned it. And because of that I'm not making 70% of what my male cohorts are either, trust me.

gdulli 10y ago
I think that's oversimplifying. I'm self-taught and I took it on myself to learn rather than go to an expensive school, and I've had a successful career. It wasn't handed to me and I totally get that you should take responsibility for your own success. But there's more than one factor. I grew up white and not poor, my family had enough money for a computer and internet access. My father was an engineer and took me to science museums. I had enough money to buy expensive books about programming. I may be responsible for my own success but I was also completely set up for it, and that matters too. If I'd grown up poor, I doubt I'd have dragged myself to the library every day to use their free computers. I've worked hard and I believe I deserve my success, but I've also been privileged.
- dotnetisnotdead 10y ago
  Maybe it's not so much that I'm oversimplifying as others are over complicating the issue. It's funny you bring up dragging yourself to a library, because that's exactly what I did in the early 2000s. My family did not have a computer. I'm not as unusual as you might think. My social circle is full of successful minorities, with similar stories. When we go out downtown for drinks if we talk about work we're usually talking about opportunities and things we're working on, not making excuses and blaming white men for things. That's why this stuff bewilders me. I know that certain white people being "tolerant" and "helping" us makes them feel good inside, and gives them a feeling of empowerment. That's fine. Just know that not all people of color are thrilled about it. It's condescending and counter productive. Of course there is discrimination in business, but if that's all you focus on you will fail. The rules apply to all races, nationalities, and genders: if you focus on why you can't do something, you'll fail. If you focus on why you CAN magic things happen.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]