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This is so passive-aggressive and juvenile. If you don't like the way your company is being run, there are three acceptable options: - Summon the courage to s

This is so passive-aggressive and juvenile. If you don't like the way your company is being run, there are three acceptable options: - Summon the courage to say something about it and brave the consequences. - Leave the company honorably and work somewhere else (or start your own company). - Keep your mouth shut and blow off steam at the gym, bar, or therapist like everyone else. If you can't go to your boss or boss's boss with a legitimate problem, you took the wrong job offer. If I was an angel investor, I would not work with anyone who participated in this site.

smacktoward 10y ago
There is of course a fourth: organize with your co-workers and bargain collectively for smarter management and better working conditions. (If by "acceptable" you don't intend to limit yourself to "things acceptable to management.")
GFischer 10y ago
Devil's advocate: sometimes organizations change. A change in management can bring a bad boss (not due to "taking the wrong job offer"). I do agree that this approach seems juvenile. I've seen a few cases of bad managers, in one case the boss's boss was notified of the problems (it was a team effort, as the sibling comment notes), and said boss was eventually laid off. In another case, it was the employee who took the "honorable" way out (and the PHB in question is still safely ensconced in his position). Edit: the bottom quote in the site is pretty defeatist: "Gone are days where workers could organize and negotiate company-wide change"
chillingeffect 10y ago
You're right, your system works for you, but could you explain why you expect it to work for other people with different situations and experiences from your own? I don't believe it's applicable very widely at all. For example, when it comes to "braving the consequences," the consequences affect those beyond ourselves, such as our dependents. I could be extremely courageous and then brave, but it doesn't feed children, in-laws or pay the mortgage if the consequences involve getting fired or demoted.
- chrissnell 10y ago
  I have two kids and a mortgage--I think I understand where you're coming from. If toughing it out or raising your issue up the chain are not options, it's best to start looking for a new gig in the evenings after the kids go down.
- mwfunk 10y ago
  If you (the general "you", not you specifically, and hopefully not you at all :) are working someplace where this sort of anonymous nastygram to a manager is the most pragmatic way to make your voice heard, the fact that you work in that sort of environment is a much bigger problem in your life than whatever problem the anonymous nastygram might help with. Your time would be better spent finding a new place to work rather than sending anonymous nastygrams. The best possible outcome from an anonymous nastygram still leaves you working someplace where the only way to make your voice heard is via anonymous nastygrams, and that's unacceptable as a long-term solution for anyone, anywhere. As a short-term solution to a specific problem, it's still not likely to help- it'll just foment paranoia and ill-will. In fact, the passive-aggressive approach is probably only going to have a constructive outcome with managers who care enough about their employees that it would be better to just talk to them anyway. The terrible managers this is designed for will just double down on their terribleness if they were to receive something like this. I don't think anyone's suggesting that someone in this situation should quit their job and then start looking for something new. No one should ever do that if they can reasonably avoid it. But that person should definitely be putting all their energy into finding a new job rather than trying to patch up their current, unfixable employment situation to be more bearable.
toomuchtodo 10y ago
> This is so passive-aggressive and juvenile. > If I was an angel investor, I would not work with anyone who participated in this site. Some self-reflection required.
df3 10y ago
I agree 100%. Having a bad boss in college is what motivated me to start up my own company. I had drinks with one of my former coworkers recently and she told me that he was new and also had a terrible boss who didn't emphasize leadership. He's apparently a much better manager now. I can imagine that he was also incredibly stressed and unhappy in retrospect, and I can only imagine that sending this card would have had a ripple-effect of passive-aggressiveness on the team. Even if you think someone is going out of their way to make your life shitty, you don't know what other baggage they're carrying for the day. The best thing you can do is be nice and in the meantime, look for another job or try to positively create change.
0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
Being a boss is juvenile. I find juveniles have lots of qualities that aren't worth forgetting.
- mwfunk 10y ago
  And parents! They're the worst! Always telling me what I can and can't do, but what do they know?!?
ue_ 10y ago
>Keep your mouth shut and blow off steam at the gym, bar, or therapist like everyone else. I don't think I've ever seen a bigger example of a statement against worker's rights than this. This is exactly something you'd expect your boss to say.
- chrissnell 10y ago
  Workers' rights? Which country is this? In the U.S., you have a right to a physically safe work environment free of harassment and discrimination (explicitly defined protected classes) and to be paid for the work you do. You don't have a "right" to a non-asshole boss, a happy and fulfilling work environment, or the right to express your opinion at work. Job satisfaction is not a "universal human right".
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    Workers rights are whatever we decide them to be collectively. How do we do this? We apply pressure on employers and vote in candidates who support labor rights. How do you think we got to a five day work week? 40 hours a week? We just keep turning the ratchet. PS you have a right to a non-asshole boss. You're buying someone's time, not their dignity.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dexterdog 10y ago
    Not yet.
  - crpatino 10y ago
    I think you are confusing "rights" with "entitlement". Everyone have as much rights to a non-asshole boss as they want, but in order to materialize that right they need the courage to stand up to their current bosses' BS. Which is exactly what the GP post is saying. "Keeping your mouth shut" is an option, but unless you are doing it as part of a bigger strategy it is a very bad option and either of the other two would be preferable. If you accept as true the statement that reads "like everybody else", it means that too many people are taking the bad options and that most of they do not have any particular reason to do it besides cowardice. This is a problem for the rest of us, - specially the ones that want to make changes from within, - because it validates the bad bosses' behavior. And just to be clear, to "shut your mouth" strategically is, in my mind, a form of delayed action. You do not accept the BS because you have surrendered to authority; you just avoid conflict in the short term to have peace of mind while you prepare your exit.

smacktoward 10y ago

There is of course a fourth: organize with your co-workers and bargain collectively for smarter management and better working conditions. (If by "acceptable" you don't intend to limit yourself to "things acceptable to management.")

GFischer 10y ago

Devil's advocate: sometimes organizations change. A change in management can bring a bad boss (not due to "taking the wrong job offer"). I do agree that this approach seems juvenile. I've seen a few cases of bad managers, in one case the boss's boss was notified of the problems (it was a team effort, as the sibling comment notes), and said boss was eventually laid off. In another case, it was the employee who took the "honorable" way out (and the PHB in question is still safely ensconced in his position). Edit: the bottom quote in the site is pretty defeatist: "Gone are days where workers could organize and negotiate company-wide change"

chillingeffect 10y ago

You're right, your system works for you, but could you explain why you expect it to work for other people with different situations and experiences from your own? I don't believe it's applicable very widely at all. For example, when it comes to "braving the consequences," the consequences affect those beyond ourselves, such as our dependents. I could be extremely courageous and then brave, but it doesn't feed children, in-laws or pay the mortgage if the consequences involve getting fired or demoted.

chrissnell 10y ago
I have two kids and a mortgage--I think I understand where you're coming from. If toughing it out or raising your issue up the chain are not options, it's best to start looking for a new gig in the evenings after the kids go down.
mwfunk 10y ago
If you (the general "you", not you specifically, and hopefully not you at all :) are working someplace where this sort of anonymous nastygram to a manager is the most pragmatic way to make your voice heard, the fact that you work in that sort of environment is a much bigger problem in your life than whatever problem the anonymous nastygram might help with. Your time would be better spent finding a new place to work rather than sending anonymous nastygrams. The best possible outcome from an anonymous nastygram still leaves you working someplace where the only way to make your voice heard is via anonymous nastygrams, and that's unacceptable as a long-term solution for anyone, anywhere. As a short-term solution to a specific problem, it's still not likely to help- it'll just foment paranoia and ill-will. In fact, the passive-aggressive approach is probably only going to have a constructive outcome with managers who care enough about their employees that it would be better to just talk to them anyway. The terrible managers this is designed for will just double down on their terribleness if they were to receive something like this. I don't think anyone's suggesting that someone in this situation should quit their job and then start looking for something new. No one should ever do that if they can reasonably avoid it. But that person should definitely be putting all their energy into finding a new job rather than trying to patch up their current, unfixable employment situation to be more bearable.

toomuchtodo 10y ago

> This is so passive-aggressive and juvenile. > If I was an angel investor, I would not work with anyone who participated in this site. Some self-reflection required.

df3 10y ago

I agree 100%. Having a bad boss in college is what motivated me to start up my own company. I had drinks with one of my former coworkers recently and she told me that he was new and also had a terrible boss who didn't emphasize leadership. He's apparently a much better manager now. I can imagine that he was also incredibly stressed and unhappy in retrospect, and I can only imagine that sending this card would have had a ripple-effect of passive-aggressiveness on the team. Even if you think someone is going out of their way to make your life shitty, you don't know what other baggage they're carrying for the day. The best thing you can do is be nice and in the meantime, look for another job or try to positively create change.

0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago

Being a boss is juvenile. I find juveniles have lots of qualities that aren't worth forgetting.

mwfunk 10y ago
And parents! They're the worst! Always telling me what I can and can't do, but what do they know?!?

ue_ 10y ago

>Keep your mouth shut and blow off steam at the gym, bar, or therapist like everyone else. I don't think I've ever seen a bigger example of a statement against worker's rights than this. This is exactly something you'd expect your boss to say.

chrissnell 10y ago
Workers' rights? Which country is this? In the U.S., you have a right to a physically safe work environment free of harassment and discrimination (explicitly defined protected classes) and to be paid for the work you do. You don't have a "right" to a non-asshole boss, a happy and fulfilling work environment, or the right to express your opinion at work. Job satisfaction is not a "universal human right".
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  Workers rights are whatever we decide them to be collectively. How do we do this? We apply pressure on employers and vote in candidates who support labor rights. How do you think we got to a five day work week? 40 hours a week? We just keep turning the ratchet. PS you have a right to a non-asshole boss. You're buying someone's time, not their dignity.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dexterdog 10y ago
  Not yet.
- crpatino 10y ago
  I think you are confusing "rights" with "entitlement". Everyone have as much rights to a non-asshole boss as they want, but in order to materialize that right they need the courage to stand up to their current bosses' BS. Which is exactly what the GP post is saying. "Keeping your mouth shut" is an option, but unless you are doing it as part of a bigger strategy it is a very bad option and either of the other two would be preferable. If you accept as true the statement that reads "like everybody else", it means that too many people are taking the bad options and that most of they do not have any particular reason to do it besides cowardice. This is a problem for the rest of us, - specially the ones that want to make changes from within, - because it validates the bad bosses' behavior. And just to be clear, to "shut your mouth" strategically is, in my mind, a form of delayed action. You do not accept the BS because you have surrendered to authority; you just avoid conflict in the short term to have peace of mind while you prepare your exit.