4 ms·

FBI Is Apparently Paying Geek Squad Members to Dig Around in Computers

90 points by bhartzer 10y ago

h4nkoslo 10y ago
The FBI has been repeatedly caught with their hands in the cookie jar. http://www.floridabulldog.org/2016/06/u-s-attorneys-office-fbi-accused-of-spying-on-defense-in-fraud-case/ http://www.floridabulldog.org/2016/06/u-s-attorneys-office-f... http://www.mintpressnews.com/fbi-planted-bugs-california-courthouse-without-warrant/216482/ http://www.mintpressnews.com/fbi-planted-bugs-california-cou... When caught they feign a mixture of complete denial, ignorance, and "I didn't know it was illegal", and they are approximately never held personally responsible by judges.
Crito 10y ago
I assumed they did that for free.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  They do, but it's actually worse that they're getting paid. The incident prompting this article is a child pornography case - which would be fine, since there's a reporting requirement for techs even without pay. But rather than getting reports on incidental discoveries, the FBI is apparently paying techs for each discovery; effectively using them as commission-based employees. That's bad because it creates an incentive to search every customer's files for anything reportable, but it's awful because it allows the FBI to rout around warrant restrictions. "Private searches" are legal without warrants, so rather than paying people to do searches (nonprivate), the FBI is giving them money for results (nominally private, with nonprivate motivations).
- acveilleux 10y ago
  If it was for free, the FBI would get tipped off when a Geek Squad employee accidentally came upon something incriminating. No worries there. By paying them 500$ (remembering that Geek Squad pay is shit) they incentivize the GS employees to go out of their way to snoop and, quite frankly, to try to broaden the range of what is incriminating as far as they can get away with while still getting a commission. How long before someone with a need for cash decides to plant evidence? This is different. It's a fishing expedition outsourced to skirt over the 4th amendment.
jwtadvice 10y ago
Moderators - am I allowed to comment on this front page article?
- jwtadvice 10y ago
  Context for those downvoting me. I have been blocked from commenting on anything the moderators consider political. I am asking here because I am afraid of having my comments blocked again and because I do not want my account to be deleted. I am looking to get confirmation that I am allowed to speak.
  - grzm 10y ago
    If you're looking to get a (more) timely response, I recommend emailing them (email address available from the Contact link in the footer).
    - jwtadvice 10y ago
      Thank you, I will do that.
  - milankragujevic 10y ago
    Context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13341191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13341191
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ardulox 10y ago
  I'm a little more concerned with what looks like a censorship practice of HN/ycombinator. Why are you not allowed to voice your opinion on strictly political issues? I understand guidelines, but this is crossing a line.
  - dadadasdf 10y ago
    Yeah, I scrolled through several pages of jwtadvice and I don't see any comments that appear to violate site guidelines. Further, I see a lot of similarities between my views and those of jwtadvice. Does this mean I'll get banned too? And for what reason?
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
How does Apple guard against such infiltrators tarnishing their brand?
- dsp1234 10y ago
  The Geek Squad is a Best Buy brand, not Apple. So I don't think there is anything specific that Apple needs to do here.
  - x0x0 10y ago
    The FBI would just bribe geek squad employees and not genius bar employees because ... ???
- Kadin 10y ago
  I doubt they are. Disk encryption (FileVault) may be somewhat more common on Macs than on your average Windows machine, but I still bet it's more the exception than the rule. I don't think it's enabled by default and I doubt most people go to the work of enabling it.
  - TkTech 10y ago
    It's been the default for the last 3 years (since Yosemite), you have to actively decide to turn it off during the setup wizard.
    - Esau 10y ago
      I don't think that's right. I always do clean installs of major Mac releases and I don't recall setup ever prompting me about Filevault. Now you have me questing my recollection.
      - TkTech 10y ago
        https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/new-filevault-2-enablement-option-in-yosemites-setup-assistant/ https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/new-filevault-2... It won't show up based on a number of criteria, your recollection may be correct but you may be running into this.
youdontknowtho 10y ago
Of course they are. Wow. It's like the bad news just keeps coming. They already have massive powers to conduct investigations.
- r00fus 10y ago
  It's not enough power. It's never enough.
  - BipolarElsa 10y ago
    Geek Squad is just an arm of the FBI, that's all.
jmcgough 10y ago
I don't view child porn, but I still never let techs look at my drives. You never know what they'll do with your data. As an example, one Geek Squad tech took a female art student's naked art photos and shared them online: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/suit-claims-best-buy-geek-squad-stole-naked-pics-article-1.1427879 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/suit-claims-best-bu...
paulpauper 10y ago
Heard so many bad things about best buy and geek squad over the years. Amazed they are still in business.
- r00fus 10y ago
  Maybe it'll turn out like Dell and other computer makers who at some points were only in the black because of Intel payola. It undermines their entire offering but a "market solution" isn't possible to punish these offenses because the payola protects the offender. http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/23/technology/dell_intel/ http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/23/technology/dell_intel/
Bartweiss 10y ago
Key takeaway: "Private searches are acceptable, but the introduction of cash payments, as well as the FBI having an official liaison with Best Buy suggests the searches aren't really "private." Instead, the FBI appears to be using private searches to route around warrant requirements." The FBI is paying Geek Squad members for discoveries, not as direct employees. This has two awful impacts. First, it incentivizes searching every single computer touched, rather than just reacting to suspicions or FBI requests. Second, the 'commission' nature of the payments is being used to argue that these are "private searches" exempt from warrant requirements, which are only connected to the FBI after the fact (despite what is apparently a standing expectation of commission).
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  The amounts are also concerningly small. How much would it cost to bribe one of these "unofficial deputies" to plant evidence?
  - Shendare 10y ago
    Exactly! How on Earth could you prove an offending image wasn't yours?
    - voxic11 10y ago
      In fact the case referenced in the article ran into this. The image was recovered from unassigned space on the drive and therefore there was not even any data about where it came from (that could be faked too but at least it gives you something to disprove).
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    Honestly, I've always been surprised that intelligence paychecks of all kinds aren't larger, for informants or agents. I know government salaries are generally constrained (especially for highly-skilled work), but surely one helpful step for fighting subversion is to insure that your employees are living comfortably?
Analemma_ 10y ago
This would be bad enough on its own, but fact that the techs are paid per discovery is what's really terrifying. This is going to fall straight into the Cobra effect: when you pay people to discover X, there will suddenly be lots more X to be found, most of it unreal. Except instead of just wasted bounty money, it's going to be people going to prison. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect
rthomas6 10y ago
On a related note, I'm looking to start taking digital privacy/security more seriously. Not because I'm worried about anything in particular, but because I'd like to not enable purposeful tracking or collection of my information. Anyway, what are the best practices for this, for someone that lives in the US? Email, smartphone, laptop, etc? Should I bother with setting up my own email server on a VPS? What about cloud storage, calendar, etc? Should I use services like Todoist? How do I limit the tracking, resale, and use of my smartphone info for ads? Is LUKS a good idea for my laptop? Is there a place online that has some guidance for this stuff? Who can give me a clue about what's a good idea and what isn't?
- LyndsySimon 10y ago
  One thing that I've been investigating is that apparently if your email is hosted by a third party, then it's not covered by the Fourth Amendment. As far as I can tell, if you host the physical hardware in your home, it is covered.
- nyolfen 10y ago
  https://prism-break.org/en/all/ https://prism-break.org/en/all/
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

90 points by bhartzer 10y ago

The FBI has been repeatedly caught with their hands in the cookie jar. http://www.floridabulldog.org/2016/06/u-s-attorneys-office-fbi-accused-of-spying-on-defense-in-fraud-case/ http://www.floridabulldog.org/2016/06/u-s-attorneys-office-f... http://www.mintpressnews.com/fbi-planted-bugs-california-courthouse-without-warrant/216482/ http://www.mintpressnews.com/fbi-planted-bugs-california-cou... When caught they feign a mixture of complete denial, ignorance, and "I didn't know it was illegal", and they are approximately never held personally responsible by judges.

Crito 10y ago

I assumed they did that for free.

Bartweiss 10y ago
They do, but it's actually worse that they're getting paid. The incident prompting this article is a child pornography case - which would be fine, since there's a reporting requirement for techs even without pay. But rather than getting reports on incidental discoveries, the FBI is apparently paying techs for each discovery; effectively using them as commission-based employees. That's bad because it creates an incentive to search every customer's files for anything reportable, but it's awful because it allows the FBI to rout around warrant restrictions. "Private searches" are legal without warrants, so rather than paying people to do searches (nonprivate), the FBI is giving them money for results (nominally private, with nonprivate motivations).
acveilleux 10y ago
If it was for free, the FBI would get tipped off when a Geek Squad employee accidentally came upon something incriminating. No worries there. By paying them 500$ (remembering that Geek Squad pay is shit) they incentivize the GS employees to go out of their way to snoop and, quite frankly, to try to broaden the range of what is incriminating as far as they can get away with while still getting a commission. How long before someone with a need for cash decides to plant evidence? This is different. It's a fishing expedition outsourced to skirt over the 4th amendment.

jwtadvice 10y ago

Moderators - am I allowed to comment on this front page article?

jwtadvice 10y ago
Context for those downvoting me. I have been blocked from commenting on anything the moderators consider political. I am asking here because I am afraid of having my comments blocked again and because I do not want my account to be deleted. I am looking to get confirmation that I am allowed to speak.
- grzm 10y ago
  If you're looking to get a (more) timely response, I recommend emailing them (email address available from the Contact link in the footer).
  - jwtadvice 10y ago
    Thank you, I will do that.
- milankragujevic 10y ago
  Context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13341191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13341191
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ardulox 10y ago
I'm a little more concerned with what looks like a censorship practice of HN/ycombinator. Why are you not allowed to voice your opinion on strictly political issues? I understand guidelines, but this is crossing a line.
- dadadasdf 10y ago
  Yeah, I scrolled through several pages of jwtadvice and I don't see any comments that appear to violate site guidelines. Further, I see a lot of similarities between my views and those of jwtadvice. Does this mean I'll get banned too? And for what reason?

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

How does Apple guard against such infiltrators tarnishing their brand?

dsp1234 10y ago
The Geek Squad is a Best Buy brand, not Apple. So I don't think there is anything specific that Apple needs to do here.
- x0x0 10y ago
  The FBI would just bribe geek squad employees and not genius bar employees because ... ???
Kadin 10y ago
I doubt they are. Disk encryption (FileVault) may be somewhat more common on Macs than on your average Windows machine, but I still bet it's more the exception than the rule. I don't think it's enabled by default and I doubt most people go to the work of enabling it.
- TkTech 10y ago
  It's been the default for the last 3 years (since Yosemite), you have to actively decide to turn it off during the setup wizard.
  - Esau 10y ago
    I don't think that's right. I always do clean installs of major Mac releases and I don't recall setup ever prompting me about Filevault. Now you have me questing my recollection.
    - TkTech 10y ago
      https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/new-filevault-2-enablement-option-in-yosemites-setup-assistant/ https://derflounder.wordpress.com/2014/10/25/new-filevault-2... It won't show up based on a number of criteria, your recollection may be correct but you may be running into this.

youdontknowtho 10y ago

Of course they are. Wow. It's like the bad news just keeps coming. They already have massive powers to conduct investigations.

r00fus 10y ago
It's not enough power. It's never enough.
- BipolarElsa 10y ago
  Geek Squad is just an arm of the FBI, that's all.

jmcgough 10y ago

I don't view child porn, but I still never let techs look at my drives. You never know what they'll do with your data. As an example, one Geek Squad tech took a female art student's naked art photos and shared them online: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/suit-claims-best-buy-geek-squad-stole-naked-pics-article-1.1427879 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/suit-claims-best-bu...

paulpauper 10y ago

Heard so many bad things about best buy and geek squad over the years. Amazed they are still in business.

r00fus 10y ago
Maybe it'll turn out like Dell and other computer makers who at some points were only in the black because of Intel payola. It undermines their entire offering but a "market solution" isn't possible to punish these offenses because the payola protects the offender. http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/23/technology/dell_intel/ http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/23/technology/dell_intel/

Bartweiss 10y ago

Key takeaway: "Private searches are acceptable, but the introduction of cash payments, as well as the FBI having an official liaison with Best Buy suggests the searches aren't really "private." Instead, the FBI appears to be using private searches to route around warrant requirements." The FBI is paying Geek Squad members for discoveries, not as direct employees. This has two awful impacts. First, it incentivizes searching every single computer touched, rather than just reacting to suspicions or FBI requests. Second, the 'commission' nature of the payments is being used to argue that these are "private searches" exempt from warrant requirements, which are only connected to the FBI after the fact (despite what is apparently a standing expectation of commission).

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
The amounts are also concerningly small. How much would it cost to bribe one of these "unofficial deputies" to plant evidence?
- Shendare 10y ago
  Exactly! How on Earth could you prove an offending image wasn't yours?
  - voxic11 10y ago
    In fact the case referenced in the article ran into this. The image was recovered from unassigned space on the drive and therefore there was not even any data about where it came from (that could be faked too but at least it gives you something to disprove).
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  Honestly, I've always been surprised that intelligence paychecks of all kinds aren't larger, for informants or agents. I know government salaries are generally constrained (especially for highly-skilled work), but surely one helpful step for fighting subversion is to insure that your employees are living comfortably?

Analemma_ 10y ago

This would be bad enough on its own, but fact that the techs are paid per discovery is what's really terrifying. This is going to fall straight into the Cobra effect: when you pay people to discover X, there will suddenly be lots more X to be found, most of it unreal. Except instead of just wasted bounty money, it's going to be people going to prison. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

rthomas6 10y ago

On a related note, I'm looking to start taking digital privacy/security more seriously. Not because I'm worried about anything in particular, but because I'd like to not enable purposeful tracking or collection of my information. Anyway, what are the best practices for this, for someone that lives in the US? Email, smartphone, laptop, etc? Should I bother with setting up my own email server on a VPS? What about cloud storage, calendar, etc? Should I use services like Todoist? How do I limit the tracking, resale, and use of my smartphone info for ads? Is LUKS a good idea for my laptop? Is there a place online that has some guidance for this stuff? Who can give me a clue about what's a good idea and what isn't?

LyndsySimon 10y ago
One thing that I've been investigating is that apparently if your email is hosted by a third party, then it's not covered by the Fourth Amendment. As far as I can tell, if you host the physical hardware in your home, it is covered.
nyolfen 10y ago
https://prism-break.org/en/all/ https://prism-break.org/en/all/

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]