5 ms·

Extremes are always bad. Jobs was just lucky and now he becomes the Asshole Jesus. As if we wouldn't have enough of them already out there.

by aluhut 10y ago

astrodust 10y ago
I think people misunderstand Jobs and the asshole component. He was extremely driven and passionate, not unlike an artist, and was highly temperamental. Yet at the same time he was not 100% asshole 100% of the time. He had a kinder side that was less often reported, the circumstances often highly personal and less newsworthy. The reason people tolerated his outbursts or his general dickishness is because they saw what he was doing and they respected his vision. Being a dick may have helped him at times and hurt him at others, but it's just how he was. Everyone else seeking to emulate him on those terms is going to be an insufferable dick because they're missing the other elements.
- adrienne 10y ago
  Yeah, ask Lisa Brennan-Jobs about his "kinder side". Ask Steve Wozniak. He spent his whole life throwing people under the bus and using them to get his way. He was a manipulative, terrible human being, and it's frankly zero surprise to me how much of the Hacker News community idolizes him.
  - 3adawi 10y ago
    because they understand most people are complex and not either assholes or nice/kind people, his close friends/colleagues don't seem to have a problem and remember him every year.
    - adrienne 10y ago
      Please see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13361752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13361752
  - astrodust 10y ago
    The only reason her name is "Brennan-Jobs" is because they achieved some degree of reconciliation, so I'm not sure why you'd pick that example. Relationships are complicated, especially between lovers and co-founders. Wozniak has a lot of axes to grind, but he's also not going to piss all over Steve just because of those. If you read the account from the Pixar side of things, his other multi-billion dollar company, he had a whole different attitude towards engaging with that team. Apple was his baby, his entire life, while Pixar was a business venture.
    - adrienne 10y ago
      He ignored his real responsibility to her for many years. He stole from Wozniak. Whether they achieved reconciliation or not is irrelevant to my point; we forgive people for the wrongs they've done to us for all sorts of reasons, but that doesn't erase the wrongs done. He had a habit of only caring about people while they were useful to him, and that is, in fact, a huge stain on his character, whether or not people in his life accepted it.
      - astrodust 10y ago
        I think it's generally accepted that he's not all good, and like many, not all bad either. I'm sure there's a littany of other grievances large and small but on the whole he's not predominantly a bad guy. Just as we shouldn't make him out to be some kind of saint who could do no wrong we shouldn't vilify him for the many mistakes he made. The way you're beating on this drum sure sounds a lot like what he did was so monstrous it overshadowed his work. He's no Roman Polaniski, Woody Allen or Bill Cosby where the transgressions are so severe you'd want the person shunned, their work permanently stained by their horrible actions. He was a dick, he was difficult, he was emotionally demanding and verbally abusive, for that he'll always be guilty, but as far as anyone's been willing to divulge he never crossed that line to something violent or irreparably dark.
        adrienne 10y ago
        The fact that tech believes in visionaries - in people who are unique such that their shitty behavior must be excused, for years, so that their "work" gets done - is the main problem with tech, frankly.

Extremes are always bad. Jobs was just lucky and now he becomes the Asshole Jesus. As if we wouldn't have enough of them already out there.

by aluhut 10y ago

Extremes are always bad. Jobs was just lucky and now he becomes the Asshole Jesus. As if we wouldn't have enough of them already out there.

astrodust 10y ago

I think people misunderstand Jobs and the asshole component. He was extremely driven and passionate, not unlike an artist, and was highly temperamental. Yet at the same time he was not 100% asshole 100% of the time. He had a kinder side that was less often reported, the circumstances often highly personal and less newsworthy. The reason people tolerated his outbursts or his general dickishness is because they saw what he was doing and they respected his vision. Being a dick may have helped him at times and hurt him at others, but it's just how he was. Everyone else seeking to emulate him on those terms is going to be an insufferable dick because they're missing the other elements.

adrienne 10y ago
Yeah, ask Lisa Brennan-Jobs about his "kinder side". Ask Steve Wozniak. He spent his whole life throwing people under the bus and using them to get his way. He was a manipulative, terrible human being, and it's frankly zero surprise to me how much of the Hacker News community idolizes him.
- 3adawi 10y ago
  because they understand most people are complex and not either assholes or nice/kind people, his close friends/colleagues don't seem to have a problem and remember him every year.
  - adrienne 10y ago
    Please see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13361752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13361752
- astrodust 10y ago
  The only reason her name is "Brennan-Jobs" is because they achieved some degree of reconciliation, so I'm not sure why you'd pick that example. Relationships are complicated, especially between lovers and co-founders. Wozniak has a lot of axes to grind, but he's also not going to piss all over Steve just because of those. If you read the account from the Pixar side of things, his other multi-billion dollar company, he had a whole different attitude towards engaging with that team. Apple was his baby, his entire life, while Pixar was a business venture.
  - adrienne 10y ago
    He ignored his real responsibility to her for many years. He stole from Wozniak. Whether they achieved reconciliation or not is irrelevant to my point; we forgive people for the wrongs they've done to us for all sorts of reasons, but that doesn't erase the wrongs done. He had a habit of only caring about people while they were useful to him, and that is, in fact, a huge stain on his character, whether or not people in his life accepted it.
    - astrodust 10y ago
      I think it's generally accepted that he's not all good, and like many, not all bad either. I'm sure there's a littany of other grievances large and small but on the whole he's not predominantly a bad guy. Just as we shouldn't make him out to be some kind of saint who could do no wrong we shouldn't vilify him for the many mistakes he made. The way you're beating on this drum sure sounds a lot like what he did was so monstrous it overshadowed his work. He's no Roman Polaniski, Woody Allen or Bill Cosby where the transgressions are so severe you'd want the person shunned, their work permanently stained by their horrible actions. He was a dick, he was difficult, he was emotionally demanding and verbally abusive, for that he'll always be guilty, but as far as anyone's been willing to divulge he never crossed that line to something violent or irreparably dark.
      - adrienne 10y ago
        The fact that tech believes in visionaries - in people who are unique such that their shitty behavior must be excused, for years, so that their "work" gets done - is the main problem with tech, frankly.