10 ms·

Packaging is a complicated task and isn't as automatable as you'd think, It is important to consider how changes impact other tools. AppImage depends on maintai

by grhmc 10y ago

Packaging is a complicated task and isn't as automatable as you'd think, It is important to consider how changes impact other tools. AppImage depends on maintainers too. Consider for example how appimage recipes depend on wget and bash and thusly openssl and libidn and glibc and libdl and git too, which brings with it libz and, and, and ... PS: Thank you, Riku. I never understood the sheer amount of effort involved in being a packager / maintainer until I started doing the same task for NixOS. I regularly depend on Debian's excellent patches and CVE details to do my work. May you not be bogged down by nirvana fallacies :)

xorfish 10y ago
> Packaging is a complicated task and isn't as automatable as you'd think I think the Solus guys would have a word with you. Even with no packaging experience it is pretty simple to create a package for Solus Project. Here a short intro: https://wiki.solus-project.com/Packaging https://wiki.solus-project.com/Packaging
- infinity0 10y ago
  Come back when they have done this for 24000 third-party packages.
  - xorfish 10y ago
    I don't see the connection. I didn't say that they have more packages, just that they have very good packaging tooling that makes it simple to make consistent packages.
    - BuuQu9hu 10y ago
      When you package 24000 things, you find significant diversity in build systems, languages, source code, testing etc. It isn't easy to package all of that in simple ways.
      - xorfish 10y ago
        I don't know exactly to what the 24000 number refers to. Solus Project does already have 5000 packages in the repos. I think that is quite an accomplishment for a pretty small team of 3-4 people with some help from the community.
BuuQu9hu 10y ago
It can be easy for certain kinds of software: https://wiki.debian.org/AutomaticPackagingTools https://wiki.debian.org/AutomaticPackagingTools https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_configure https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_configure https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_build https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_build https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_install https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_install
- radarsat1 10y ago
  What I find complicated about Debian packaging is not how to use the tools and how to arrange the package, although that is certainly complicated, but not intractable. What I don't understand is once you have a package, why it is such a long and complicated process to get it into Debian. You can't just upload it and forget, you have to sign up and become associated with that work, you have distribute your keys and get other people to trust you, you have to make a bug and file the package against that bug, etc. There is this whole social dynamic within Debian that I just don't understand at all. If it was more like software development; make the package, git commit, push, post it to software like reddit and have people approve (upvote) it, then I'd be a maintainer already. Instead there's this whole process behind becoming a maintainer, finding a "mentor" etc, that for years I've just found to be a complete roadblock.
  - brennen 10y ago
    > You can't just upload it and forget Leaving aside the specifics of Debian's tooling and social process (undeniably, these are arcane and complex), I suspect this has a lot to do with why Debian is such a reliable environment over time in a way that few software collections manage. It would almost certainly be better if it were easier than it is to participate in Debian. I've thought about contributing for years, but I certainly haven't had the energy to clear those hurdles. On the other hand, there's something really important in the distance between typical modern software publication and packaging for an ecosystem like Debian. I think we'd be a lot better off if more people were committed to the hard, tedious process stuff that renders software accessible to users, a good neighbor to other projects, and maintainable over the long term.

by grhmc 10y ago

xorfish 10y ago

> Packaging is a complicated task and isn't as automatable as you'd think I think the Solus guys would have a word with you. Even with no packaging experience it is pretty simple to create a package for Solus Project. Here a short intro: https://wiki.solus-project.com/Packaging https://wiki.solus-project.com/Packaging

infinity0 10y ago
Come back when they have done this for 24000 third-party packages.
- xorfish 10y ago
  I don't see the connection. I didn't say that they have more packages, just that they have very good packaging tooling that makes it simple to make consistent packages.
  - BuuQu9hu 10y ago
    When you package 24000 things, you find significant diversity in build systems, languages, source code, testing etc. It isn't easy to package all of that in simple ways.
    - xorfish 10y ago
      I don't know exactly to what the 24000 number refers to. Solus Project does already have 5000 packages in the repos. I think that is quite an accomplishment for a pretty small team of 3-4 people with some help from the community.

BuuQu9hu 10y ago

It can be easy for certain kinds of software: https://wiki.debian.org/AutomaticPackagingTools https://wiki.debian.org/AutomaticPackagingTools https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_configure https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_configure https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_build https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_build https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_install https://manpages.debian.org/man/1/dh_auto_install

radarsat1 10y ago
What I find complicated about Debian packaging is not how to use the tools and how to arrange the package, although that is certainly complicated, but not intractable. What I don't understand is once you have a package, why it is such a long and complicated process to get it into Debian. You can't just upload it and forget, you have to sign up and become associated with that work, you have distribute your keys and get other people to trust you, you have to make a bug and file the package against that bug, etc. There is this whole social dynamic within Debian that I just don't understand at all. If it was more like software development; make the package, git commit, push, post it to software like reddit and have people approve (upvote) it, then I'd be a maintainer already. Instead there's this whole process behind becoming a maintainer, finding a "mentor" etc, that for years I've just found to be a complete roadblock.
- brennen 10y ago
  > You can't just upload it and forget Leaving aside the specifics of Debian's tooling and social process (undeniably, these are arcane and complex), I suspect this has a lot to do with why Debian is such a reliable environment over time in a way that few software collections manage. It would almost certainly be better if it were easier than it is to participate in Debian. I've thought about contributing for years, but I certainly haven't had the energy to clear those hurdles. On the other hand, there's something really important in the distance between typical modern software publication and packaging for an ecosystem like Debian. I think we'd be a lot better off if more people were committed to the hard, tedious process stuff that renders software accessible to users, a good neighbor to other projects, and maintainable over the long term.