6 ms·

Standing up for your right to not use your device as you please? Standing up for your right to lock-in your data with a single vendor?

xHopen 10y ago
Do you live in the Rainforest without internet access ? I mean.. even the simple action of switching on the light of your living room , triggers data that later on will be sold and use by third party companies... please.
audunw 10y ago
> Standing up for your right to not use your device as you please? What right? Most people (but not enough) have some sense that privacy is an actual right. The number of people who think that it's a right that every device you own with an MCU or CPU should be a completely open general programming platform is a fraction of a percent. > Standing up for your right to lock-in your data with a single vendor? What lock-in? You can have all your iPhone data (contacts, notes, etc.) on Gmail if you want, you can have all your photos synchronized to Dropbox. Which data are you referring to? I have to be honest and say that this comment comes off as a knee-jerk reaction. I mean, you probably have some valid criticism in there if you worded it better. It would definitely be much better for us geeks if iPhone was more open. But a right? Get real.
- Nullabillity 10y ago
  > What right? Most people (but not enough) have some sense that privacy is an actual right. The number of people who think that it's a right that every device you own with an MCU or CPU should be a completely open general programming platform is a fraction of a percent. Ultimately, those are the same thing. There is no privacy if you can't inspect it and verify that it's upholding its promises. > What lock-in? You can have all your iPhone data (contacts, notes, etc.) on Gmail if you want, you can have all your photos synchronized to Dropbox. Which data are you referring to? If you've used one word processor, how do you open them in another without using any external service?
  - zimpenfish 10y ago
    > There is no privacy if you can't inspect it and verify that it's upholding its promises. But unless you're a top-end OS developer AND a top-end embedded systems designer at the same time, how are you going to analyse something as complex as the iPhone and verify that?
    - willstrafach 10y ago
      I have done this. iOS may be closed source, but firmwares are no longer encrypted, so you can reverse engineer anything that you are curious about.
      - zimpenfish 10y ago
        Sure, you can see the code / source / raw binary. But actually analysing and verifying every part for security or privacy concerns - bearing in mind you have to consider all the possible interactions this code can generate - and that's before you even get to the hardware interactions - is still beyond 99% of developers, never mind normal people.
        willstrafach 10y ago
        I was speaking to "There is no privacy if you can't inspect it and verify that it's upholding its promises" actually, and I probably agree with you, as your point applies just as much to open source.
  - nicky0 10y ago
    > If you've used one word processor, how do you open them in another without using any external service? By using a share sheet to send it to the other word processor, surely.
  - josephg 10y ago
    > Ultimately, those are the same thing. There is no privacy if you can't inspect it and verify that it's upholding its promises. If you want to go down that road the software you need to inspect includes all the software with access to your data. In android's case this includes all sorts of proprietary code running in google's infrastructure that you'll never see. If you enable all the features of a modern android phone the amount of data google tracks about you is staggering. All that data is available to any government that asks for it directly from google. Google is actively incentivised to data mine, use and sell my data. I don't think they sell it - but thats the direction the incentive arrows point. If you want to roll your own, or use one of the non-google android forks then I respect that decision from a privacy standpoint. (Although my security engineer voice is much more nervous.) But stock android is a privacy disaster (at least if you worry about google / the US govt). The ability to root your device is nice, but in google's ecosystem the computers that really matter are the servers.
cixin 10y ago
I don't really feel my data is locked in to any great degree. I don't use iCloud for backup. I use my own mail provider. What lock-in are you referring to? I think it would be pretty painless for me to move to Android if I wanted. I agree the AppStore is more limiting than some alternatives, but overall I think Apple have more interest in user rights than Google. Android development is not paid for through licensing fees (to any great degree) it's paid for by advertising via Google being the default service/search provider on the platform. This puts you in the position of the advertiser being the customer and the phone user being more like the product. I personally prefer the Apple model where the phone user is the customer. However I do realize it's not entirely ideal. It just feels like the best option currently available to me.
throwanem 10y ago
I know a guy who thinks it's great that, when a process pegs his phone's CPU, he can drop into a root shell and kill -9 it from top. I think it's great that in five years of iPhone ownership that's not a problem I've ever had, or even had to think about. And the only Apple service I use is the app store. Horses for courses. If you want total control and software freedom, you won't prefer an iPhone. If you want the closest available approximation to appliance-level reliability, you won't prefer anything else.
- cixin 10y ago
  The other issue for me actually is that while I might like to drop into a shell sometimes I don't really feel Android phones offer me much in that regard either. Android is far for a standard Linux/UNIX system. And it's hard to build one on top of Android because of their use of BIONIC rather than glibc. So, I feel that Android has taken Linux and crippled it to suit their ends. To me jailbroken iPhones felt much more like standard UNIX phones than Android phones. My ideal phone doesn't exist. But he iPhone is still the nearest match right now.
  - Fnoord 10y ago
    I use macOS every day, and I love it. And it is me who owns the hardware, and who is root on the device (I can't say I own the software). If I want to kill a process on macOS, I am free to do this. I don't have this freedom on iOS. On my Android phone I have the freedom to root the device (which is sort of supported by Fairphone), and if ever the OS isn't supported anymore I can just run CM or LineageOS or stock Android on it myself. You don't have that liberty on iOS devices. Jailbreaking on iOS isn't very feasible because you end up having to run code to exploit iOS. Which means your phone has a known vulnerability which you want to get fixed. But you can't without the source.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      > I don't have this freedom on iOS. Right. But, to my earlier point, you never really need to, either, because the OS does a good enough job of managing resources that such intervention is not required. I'm sure there exist corner cases, but having never hit one in half a decade of extensive use, I am prepared to argue they are vanishingly rare. That's the tradeoff: a lower granularity of control over the system, in exchange for a system well enough designed that such granularity is not required for stable and performant operation. There's an argument to be made that the tradeoff shouldn't exist, but that's theoretical unless Craig Federighi is actually on the panel. Here in the world of things that are, it's worth keeping in mind that the compromise is exactly that: yes, we give something up, but we get something in exchange for it, too.
neotek 10y ago
>Standing up for your right to lock-in your data with a single vendor? Apple didn't lock me in, I gladly locked myself in, because Apple's ecosystem is cohesive in a way that nobody else even comes close to. I love being able to make and receive calls and texts from my MacBook, I love having my documents in the cloud waiting for me wherever I am, I love being able to start browsing a site on my laptop and transfer it seamlessly to my phone on my way out the door, I love being able to take photos while I'm out and have them sitting on my PC before I even get home, and most of all I love that all of these things just happen without me even having to think about it. There are a million different options for me, I could very easily switch to Android and use a dozen different services like Dropbox and Flickr and whatever the messaging app du jour is on Android these days to achieve the same results, but why on earth would I want to?
- tingol 10y ago
  Google docs, drive and photos do those things and way better than apple imo. If the cohesiveness of the ecosystem is your most important measure, google is second to none.
  - neotek 10y ago
    Great, so that's one small part of the ecosystem covered, how about handoff between apps on my phone and apps on my laptop? How about a unified messaging system that lets me send SMS messages and make phone calls from my laptop? Google is fine if all you need is the sliver Google offers, and if you're okay with Google doing their level best to violate your privacy, but there's so much more to Apple's ecosystem that nobody has replicated right now.
    - pmontra 10y ago
      Sending SMS from the laptop can be nice for the same reasons I sometimes use the web versions of WhatsApp, Messenger and Telegram (days of long conversations), but making calls... Do they hand over to the phone if you want to walk to another room without bringing the laptop with you? I start only business calls on my laptop with Skype or Hangout, because I know I'll be at the keyboard working while speaking. Calls with friends, those start on the phone almost always. App integration between phone and laptop looks nice but in fact for most people all it matters is email and files, mostly pictures and musing. Those are covered by Google and possibly by Dropbox, plus some streaming service. Anyway, yes, even a slight edge over the competitors is better than no edge.

xHopen 10y ago

Do you live in the Rainforest without internet access ? I mean.. even the simple action of switching on the light of your living room , triggers data that later on will be sold and use by third party companies... please.

audunw 10y ago

> Standing up for your right to not use your device as you please? What right? Most people (but not enough) have some sense that privacy is an actual right. The number of people who think that it's a right that every device you own with an MCU or CPU should be a completely open general programming platform is a fraction of a percent. > Standing up for your right to lock-in your data with a single vendor? What lock-in? You can have all your iPhone data (contacts, notes, etc.) on Gmail if you want, you can have all your photos synchronized to Dropbox. Which data are you referring to? I have to be honest and say that this comment comes off as a knee-jerk reaction. I mean, you probably have some valid criticism in there if you worded it better. It would definitely be much better for us geeks if iPhone was more open. But a right? Get real.

Nullabillity 10y ago
> What right? Most people (but not enough) have some sense that privacy is an actual right. The number of people who think that it's a right that every device you own with an MCU or CPU should be a completely open general programming platform is a fraction of a percent. Ultimately, those are the same thing. There is no privacy if you can't inspect it and verify that it's upholding its promises. > What lock-in? You can have all your iPhone data (contacts, notes, etc.) on Gmail if you want, you can have all your photos synchronized to Dropbox. Which data are you referring to? If you've used one word processor, how do you open them in another without using any external service?
- zimpenfish 10y ago
  > There is no privacy if you can't inspect it and verify that it's upholding its promises. But unless you're a top-end OS developer AND a top-end embedded systems designer at the same time, how are you going to analyse something as complex as the iPhone and verify that?
  - willstrafach 10y ago
    I have done this. iOS may be closed source, but firmwares are no longer encrypted, so you can reverse engineer anything that you are curious about.
    - zimpenfish 10y ago
      Sure, you can see the code / source / raw binary. But actually analysing and verifying every part for security or privacy concerns - bearing in mind you have to consider all the possible interactions this code can generate - and that's before you even get to the hardware interactions - is still beyond 99% of developers, never mind normal people.
      - willstrafach 10y ago
        I was speaking to "There is no privacy if you can't inspect it and verify that it's upholding its promises" actually, and I probably agree with you, as your point applies just as much to open source.
- nicky0 10y ago
  > If you've used one word processor, how do you open them in another without using any external service? By using a share sheet to send it to the other word processor, surely.
- josephg 10y ago
  > Ultimately, those are the same thing. There is no privacy if you can't inspect it and verify that it's upholding its promises. If you want to go down that road the software you need to inspect includes all the software with access to your data. In android's case this includes all sorts of proprietary code running in google's infrastructure that you'll never see. If you enable all the features of a modern android phone the amount of data google tracks about you is staggering. All that data is available to any government that asks for it directly from google. Google is actively incentivised to data mine, use and sell my data. I don't think they sell it - but thats the direction the incentive arrows point. If you want to roll your own, or use one of the non-google android forks then I respect that decision from a privacy standpoint. (Although my security engineer voice is much more nervous.) But stock android is a privacy disaster (at least if you worry about google / the US govt). The ability to root your device is nice, but in google's ecosystem the computers that really matter are the servers.

cixin 10y ago

I don't really feel my data is locked in to any great degree. I don't use iCloud for backup. I use my own mail provider. What lock-in are you referring to? I think it would be pretty painless for me to move to Android if I wanted. I agree the AppStore is more limiting than some alternatives, but overall I think Apple have more interest in user rights than Google. Android development is not paid for through licensing fees (to any great degree) it's paid for by advertising via Google being the default service/search provider on the platform. This puts you in the position of the advertiser being the customer and the phone user being more like the product. I personally prefer the Apple model where the phone user is the customer. However I do realize it's not entirely ideal. It just feels like the best option currently available to me.

throwanem 10y ago

I know a guy who thinks it's great that, when a process pegs his phone's CPU, he can drop into a root shell and kill -9 it from top. I think it's great that in five years of iPhone ownership that's not a problem I've ever had, or even had to think about. And the only Apple service I use is the app store. Horses for courses. If you want total control and software freedom, you won't prefer an iPhone. If you want the closest available approximation to appliance-level reliability, you won't prefer anything else.

cixin 10y ago
The other issue for me actually is that while I might like to drop into a shell sometimes I don't really feel Android phones offer me much in that regard either. Android is far for a standard Linux/UNIX system. And it's hard to build one on top of Android because of their use of BIONIC rather than glibc. So, I feel that Android has taken Linux and crippled it to suit their ends. To me jailbroken iPhones felt much more like standard UNIX phones than Android phones. My ideal phone doesn't exist. But he iPhone is still the nearest match right now.
- Fnoord 10y ago
  I use macOS every day, and I love it. And it is me who owns the hardware, and who is root on the device (I can't say I own the software). If I want to kill a process on macOS, I am free to do this. I don't have this freedom on iOS. On my Android phone I have the freedom to root the device (which is sort of supported by Fairphone), and if ever the OS isn't supported anymore I can just run CM or LineageOS or stock Android on it myself. You don't have that liberty on iOS devices. Jailbreaking on iOS isn't very feasible because you end up having to run code to exploit iOS. Which means your phone has a known vulnerability which you want to get fixed. But you can't without the source.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > I don't have this freedom on iOS. Right. But, to my earlier point, you never really need to, either, because the OS does a good enough job of managing resources that such intervention is not required. I'm sure there exist corner cases, but having never hit one in half a decade of extensive use, I am prepared to argue they are vanishingly rare. That's the tradeoff: a lower granularity of control over the system, in exchange for a system well enough designed that such granularity is not required for stable and performant operation. There's an argument to be made that the tradeoff shouldn't exist, but that's theoretical unless Craig Federighi is actually on the panel. Here in the world of things that are, it's worth keeping in mind that the compromise is exactly that: yes, we give something up, but we get something in exchange for it, too.

neotek 10y ago

>Standing up for your right to lock-in your data with a single vendor? Apple didn't lock me in, I gladly locked myself in, because Apple's ecosystem is cohesive in a way that nobody else even comes close to. I love being able to make and receive calls and texts from my MacBook, I love having my documents in the cloud waiting for me wherever I am, I love being able to start browsing a site on my laptop and transfer it seamlessly to my phone on my way out the door, I love being able to take photos while I'm out and have them sitting on my PC before I even get home, and most of all I love that all of these things just happen without me even having to think about it. There are a million different options for me, I could very easily switch to Android and use a dozen different services like Dropbox and Flickr and whatever the messaging app du jour is on Android these days to achieve the same results, but why on earth would I want to?

tingol 10y ago
Google docs, drive and photos do those things and way better than apple imo. If the cohesiveness of the ecosystem is your most important measure, google is second to none.
- neotek 10y ago
  Great, so that's one small part of the ecosystem covered, how about handoff between apps on my phone and apps on my laptop? How about a unified messaging system that lets me send SMS messages and make phone calls from my laptop? Google is fine if all you need is the sliver Google offers, and if you're okay with Google doing their level best to violate your privacy, but there's so much more to Apple's ecosystem that nobody has replicated right now.
  - pmontra 10y ago
    Sending SMS from the laptop can be nice for the same reasons I sometimes use the web versions of WhatsApp, Messenger and Telegram (days of long conversations), but making calls... Do they hand over to the phone if you want to walk to another room without bringing the laptop with you? I start only business calls on my laptop with Skype or Hangout, because I know I'll be at the keyboard working while speaking. Calls with friends, those start on the phone almost always. App integration between phone and laptop looks nice but in fact for most people all it matters is email and files, mostly pictures and musing. Those are covered by Google and possibly by Dropbox, plus some streaming service. Anyway, yes, even a slight edge over the competitors is better than no edge.