4 ms·

Love how one can get downvoted for asking for references. Fans.

DanBC 10y ago
You'll rarely get downvoted if you actually ask for references. But if you leave a bald [citation needed] you're going to get some downvotes.
- piyush_soni 10y ago
  So how do you "actually" ask for reference? What I've written is the most direct one can be (without caring about sugar coating my sentence). People wouldn't have minded had I written: "I'm a long time fan of Apple and still love their products above any other company's, but I think some of their statements would get much more value if they support them with a third party reference like other companies do with asterisks and all, like a statement like their camera is most popular in the world could have been supported with some reference. " I bet, that would look like a neutral and balanced statement to all and most people would be happy with it, but as you can see, it's easy to fake it. The truth is I'm tired of Apple's hyperbole and people should question them. If you make a claim, support it with facts, otherwise don't write it.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    "Do you have any references for that please?" [citation needed] is just snark.
    - piyush_soni 10y ago
      >> is just snark. That's how you look at it. People can look at your (barely) rephrased question as a snarky comment too.
pvdebbe 10y ago
Truth be told, the wikipedia-originated meme is tired.
- cooper12 10y ago
  Even on Wikipedia it's disliked. Editors don't like cleanup tags because it signals that you care about some issue, but not enough to resolve it yourself and most tags languish on pages for years. (also people feel it clutters up the page and makes it look unsightly, especially since not everything needs a citation, only challenged statements) OP could have done a simple search to verify these claims or just thought if such a statement made sense. Sometimes you just have to take some things as givens or just decide how much you are willing to believe in them, not interrogate a press release, which lays its bias quite apparently from the start. Of course we should be skeptical about things that matter, especially outlandish or controversial claims, but imagine having a conversation in real-life where you couldn't rely on recollection, personal experience, and hearsay, and instead your friend said "citation needed" after every statement.
  - piyush_soni 10y ago
    >> OP could have done a simple search to verify these claims - OP (me) actually did do a simple (rather a little elaborated) search before writing that here. Yes, sometimes we do need to take things as 'given' and all, but it's also true that sometimes you do need to confront people when it becomes their habit of making hyperbolic claims. The truth is, it's the general tendency of people to dislike someone asking for citations against the things they 'believe' are true, be it HN or wikipedia (but facts generally win on Wikipedia). This works similarly in religion.
    - cooper12 10y ago
      Okay sorry for assuming otherwise, you can't really tell from such a succinct phrase. (btw, I ran a search query "is iphone the most popular camera" and the page is full of articles noting that it's the most popular on Flickr) I think the important question to ask is what the motive is for requesting a citation. Is it because you distrust the person making the statement? The statement itself? Does it have ramifications? (hence my point about it just being a press release) Or is it just because of curiosity? Sometimes it's fine to let some things go.

DanBC 10y ago

You'll rarely get downvoted if you actually ask for references. But if you leave a bald [citation needed] you're going to get some downvotes.

piyush_soni 10y ago
So how do you "actually" ask for reference? What I've written is the most direct one can be (without caring about sugar coating my sentence). People wouldn't have minded had I written: "I'm a long time fan of Apple and still love their products above any other company's, but I think some of their statements would get much more value if they support them with a third party reference like other companies do with asterisks and all, like a statement like their camera is most popular in the world could have been supported with some reference. " I bet, that would look like a neutral and balanced statement to all and most people would be happy with it, but as you can see, it's easy to fake it. The truth is I'm tired of Apple's hyperbole and people should question them. If you make a claim, support it with facts, otherwise don't write it.
- DanBC 10y ago
  "Do you have any references for that please?" [citation needed] is just snark.
  - piyush_soni 10y ago
    >> is just snark. That's how you look at it. People can look at your (barely) rephrased question as a snarky comment too.

pvdebbe 10y ago

Truth be told, the wikipedia-originated meme is tired.

cooper12 10y ago
Even on Wikipedia it's disliked. Editors don't like cleanup tags because it signals that you care about some issue, but not enough to resolve it yourself and most tags languish on pages for years. (also people feel it clutters up the page and makes it look unsightly, especially since not everything needs a citation, only challenged statements) OP could have done a simple search to verify these claims or just thought if such a statement made sense. Sometimes you just have to take some things as givens or just decide how much you are willing to believe in them, not interrogate a press release, which lays its bias quite apparently from the start. Of course we should be skeptical about things that matter, especially outlandish or controversial claims, but imagine having a conversation in real-life where you couldn't rely on recollection, personal experience, and hearsay, and instead your friend said "citation needed" after every statement.
- piyush_soni 10y ago
  >> OP could have done a simple search to verify these claims - OP (me) actually did do a simple (rather a little elaborated) search before writing that here. Yes, sometimes we do need to take things as 'given' and all, but it's also true that sometimes you do need to confront people when it becomes their habit of making hyperbolic claims. The truth is, it's the general tendency of people to dislike someone asking for citations against the things they 'believe' are true, be it HN or wikipedia (but facts generally win on Wikipedia). This works similarly in religion.
  - cooper12 10y ago
    Okay sorry for assuming otherwise, you can't really tell from such a succinct phrase. (btw, I ran a search query "is iphone the most popular camera" and the page is full of articles noting that it's the most popular on Flickr) I think the important question to ask is what the motive is for requesting a citation. Is it because you distrust the person making the statement? The statement itself? Does it have ramifications? (hence my point about it just being a press release) Or is it just because of curiosity? Sometimes it's fine to let some things go.