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Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything. And car owners are forced to do a software update that reduces engine power and increases risk

by pvlima 10y ago

Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything. And car owners are forced to do a software update that reduces engine power and increases risk of malfunction. VW never again.

dovdovdov 10y ago
If this blows up it's over for most german car manufacturers. They sold a lot of diesel cars, and most of them probably have some hacks to meet Euro standards. They should be forced to fix all cars, reimburse buyers for any losses, and be forced(!) to go green asap (which probably means at least 10 years, so yeah there should be some force)!
- sintaxi 10y ago
  I think it would be a reasonable to forbid VW from ever making a combustible engine ever again. Forcing them to go green or perish. It's some Lex Luther level shit they pulled.
  - stefantalpalaru 10y ago
    Actually, VW is one of the least polluting offenders: http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-vehicle-tests-show-dramatic-variation-nox-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-new-eu http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-vehicle-tests-show... Volvo, Renault, Hyundai, Opel and Audi are much worse, as you can see in the last graph. There's also a highly polluting Jeep at the top: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-ran... So this whole "let's make an example out of VW" has nothing to do with the scale of the crime.
- _nedR 10y ago
  It seems to be game over for diesel cars in general, even if you ignore their eventual replacement with electric cars. They have been getting a lot of bad press lately. Their popularity was due to their higher fuel efficiency; But for diesels, it seems that there is trade-off between fuel efficiency and NOx emissions (http://www.livescience.com/52284-volkswagen-scandal-clean-diesel-challenges.html http://www.livescience.com/52284-volkswagen-scandal-clean-di...). With many cities and countries trying to curb smog and air pollution, diesels are on the top of the hitlist. edit: reworded, and changed link
  - disiplus 10y ago
    diesels are popular in europe for one reason that probably somebody from us will not understand. the price of fuel. because the price of fuel is so much bigger fuel efficiency is the biggest concern
    - LordKano 10y ago
      A big part of diesel's fuel efficiency advantage is caused by the emissions controls on gasoline powered vehicles. Vehicles from the early 70s often had similar gas mileage to smaller lighter vehicles from the late 90s-early 2000s but the newer cars had much better emissions. If the makers of gasoline powered cars had cheated like VW did on their diesels, the diesel advantage would have been nonexistent.
      - bluGill 10y ago
        Even if you had no emissions laws diesel would still have a large fuel consumption advantage. Diesel contains more energy per volume (139000 btu/gallon vs 124000 btu/gallon). In addition the design of a diesel engine does not require a strict stoichiometric air/fuel ration. The result is at less than full throttle the gasoline engine the efficiency of a gasoline engine drops off faster than a diesel engine. In an ideal efficiency engine (no emissions) a gasoline engine at full throttle is more fuel efferent than a diesel engine, but when at less than full throttle - which is where most engine spend all their time) the diesel engine is more efficient. Note I skipped a dozen pages of disclaimers on the above claim: there are many ways in the real world to cheat the above.
      - hx87 10y ago
        > Vehicles from the early 70s often had similar gas mileage to smaller lighter vehicles from the late 90s-early 2000s but the newer cars had much better emissions. Source? Electronic fuel injection with closed-loop fuel/air control wasn't a mature technology in the 1970s, and open-loop fuel injection (not to mention carburetors) combined with 3- and 4-speed transmissions are inherently less efficient then closed-loop with 4, 5 and 6-speed transmissions.
    - 10y ago
the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
> Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything. Yet.
- akerro 10y ago
  South Korea put an exec guy to prison. Already.
MattBearman 10y ago
Legal proceedings have just begun in the UK [0], and according to the article VW have already had to pay out to owners in Spain. 0 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38552828 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38552828
PunchTornado 10y ago
Not true. see spain.
- akerro 10y ago
  What happened there?
  - LeifCarrotson 10y ago
    Not much: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-spain-idUSKCN12Q24U http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-spain... In October, one Spanish court ordered "two Spanish VW units" (dealers?) to pay €5000 to one buyer of an Audi which was affected by the software. VW promised to appeal, but that's the last I was able to find on the issue. There have not been large-scale decisions that I'm aware of.
csours 10y ago
So far, individual lawsuits have been brought and settled out of court. Due to NDAs the terms are not disclosed. 33c3 Diesegate (2016) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjlHtLux9vc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjlHtLux9vc start around 14 minutes for European stuff.
petre 10y ago
I'm glad they got busted in the US and I hope they lose market share. They are selling shitty cars that break just outside of warranty. I'd rather buy Peugeot/Citroen or Ford rather than VW/Audi.

by pvlima 10y ago

Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything. And car owners are forced to do a software update that reduces engine power and increases risk of malfunction. VW never again.

dovdovdov 10y ago

If this blows up it's over for most german car manufacturers. They sold a lot of diesel cars, and most of them probably have some hacks to meet Euro standards. They should be forced to fix all cars, reimburse buyers for any losses, and be forced(!) to go green asap (which probably means at least 10 years, so yeah there should be some force)!

sintaxi 10y ago
I think it would be a reasonable to forbid VW from ever making a combustible engine ever again. Forcing them to go green or perish. It's some Lex Luther level shit they pulled.
- stefantalpalaru 10y ago
  Actually, VW is one of the least polluting offenders: http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-vehicle-tests-show-dramatic-variation-nox-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-new-eu http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-vehicle-tests-show... Volvo, Renault, Hyundai, Opel and Audi are much worse, as you can see in the last graph. There's also a highly polluting Jeep at the top: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-ran... So this whole "let's make an example out of VW" has nothing to do with the scale of the crime.
_nedR 10y ago
It seems to be game over for diesel cars in general, even if you ignore their eventual replacement with electric cars. They have been getting a lot of bad press lately. Their popularity was due to their higher fuel efficiency; But for diesels, it seems that there is trade-off between fuel efficiency and NOx emissions (http://www.livescience.com/52284-volkswagen-scandal-clean-diesel-challenges.html http://www.livescience.com/52284-volkswagen-scandal-clean-di...). With many cities and countries trying to curb smog and air pollution, diesels are on the top of the hitlist. edit: reworded, and changed link
- disiplus 10y ago
  diesels are popular in europe for one reason that probably somebody from us will not understand. the price of fuel. because the price of fuel is so much bigger fuel efficiency is the biggest concern
  - LordKano 10y ago
    A big part of diesel's fuel efficiency advantage is caused by the emissions controls on gasoline powered vehicles. Vehicles from the early 70s often had similar gas mileage to smaller lighter vehicles from the late 90s-early 2000s but the newer cars had much better emissions. If the makers of gasoline powered cars had cheated like VW did on their diesels, the diesel advantage would have been nonexistent.
    - bluGill 10y ago
      Even if you had no emissions laws diesel would still have a large fuel consumption advantage. Diesel contains more energy per volume (139000 btu/gallon vs 124000 btu/gallon). In addition the design of a diesel engine does not require a strict stoichiometric air/fuel ration. The result is at less than full throttle the gasoline engine the efficiency of a gasoline engine drops off faster than a diesel engine. In an ideal efficiency engine (no emissions) a gasoline engine at full throttle is more fuel efferent than a diesel engine, but when at less than full throttle - which is where most engine spend all their time) the diesel engine is more efficient. Note I skipped a dozen pages of disclaimers on the above claim: there are many ways in the real world to cheat the above.
    - hx87 10y ago
      > Vehicles from the early 70s often had similar gas mileage to smaller lighter vehicles from the late 90s-early 2000s but the newer cars had much better emissions. Source? Electronic fuel injection with closed-loop fuel/air control wasn't a mature technology in the 1970s, and open-loop fuel injection (not to mention carburetors) combined with 3- and 4-speed transmissions are inherently less efficient then closed-loop with 4, 5 and 6-speed transmissions.
  - 10y ago

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago

> Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything. Yet.

akerro 10y ago
South Korea put an exec guy to prison. Already.

MattBearman 10y ago

Legal proceedings have just begun in the UK [0], and according to the article VW have already had to pay out to owners in Spain. 0 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38552828 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38552828

PunchTornado 10y ago

Not true. see spain.

akerro 10y ago
What happened there?
- LeifCarrotson 10y ago
  Not much: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-spain-idUSKCN12Q24U http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-spain... In October, one Spanish court ordered "two Spanish VW units" (dealers?) to pay €5000 to one buyer of an Audi which was affected by the software. VW promised to appeal, but that's the last I was able to find on the issue. There have not been large-scale decisions that I'm aware of.

csours 10y ago

So far, individual lawsuits have been brought and settled out of court. Due to NDAs the terms are not disclosed. 33c3 Diesegate (2016) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjlHtLux9vc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjlHtLux9vc start around 14 minutes for European stuff.

petre 10y ago

I'm glad they got busted in the US and I hope they lose market share. They are selling shitty cars that break just outside of warranty. I'd rather buy Peugeot/Citroen or Ford rather than VW/Audi.