7 ms·

Good. I'm tired of high-ranking high-status members of society dodging consequences of multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get

Good. I'm tired of high-ranking high-status members of society dodging consequences of multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. I think the only way to stop the white-collar crime problem (which I think is a bigger problem than the physical crime problem) is by holding people accountable.

legulere 10y ago
I agree, however it seems like they only use VW to exemplify the issue, when pretty much all manufacturers are cheating.
- Pyxl101 10y ago
  I have not been closely following this scandal, so I was unaware that other car manufacturers have been indicted in emissions cheating. Could you share a source with more information about this?
  - davewritescode 10y ago
    Not even just emissions, lots of companies play software tricks to game efficiency numbers. Chevy and Ford have both played games with the manual V8 sports cars that locks out the 1 -> 2 shift and force the driver to go 1 -> 4 to save gas when the computer sees the car accelerating at the same rate as the EPA test. The funniest thing was the Ford would sell you a software update to defeat skip shift under the guise of a "performance tune", at least that's how I defeated it while still keeping my warranty.
    - jdhn 10y ago
      I was under the impression that unless you bought an aftermarket tune the 1 -> 2 (and maybe even 1 -> 3) shift was always locked out no matter your rate of acceleration. Has this changed in the past few years?
      - mcguire 10y ago
        Not on my 2002 Corvette. First gear and low throttle opening invokes CAGS, the computer assisted hear selection.
  - robin_reala 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Transgressions_by_other_manufacturers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#T... A French government report in 2016 investigated 86 different cars, and about 1/5th of those were found to comply with emission laws. Most did not.
    - hx87 10y ago
      How many of those are sold in the US?
  - falkooo 10y ago
    Have a look at this talk of the latest CCC at 13:11 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions He talks about how it is possible that the cars achieve the low results in the testcycles but produce much higher emissions on the real road. The reverse engineering in the beginning of the task is also very interesting.
    - CommanderData 10y ago
      I was about to post this. VW have been playing dirty tactics even after the scandal.
      - holri 10y ago
        He demonstrated the same for Opel / GM.
    - AndyMcConachie 10y ago
      The companion talk about how the Dieselgate cases are transpiring is also worth a watch. https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8131-dieselgate_a_year_later#video&t=81 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8131-dieselgate_a_year_later#vid...
  - saiya-jin 10y ago
    I thought it's a common knowledge most/all are doing it in one way or the other. Same as professional athletes in many sports, ie cycling - you cannot be really successful without any hacks/borderline cheating, it's more a matter of being few steps ahead of doping tests and current rules, thriving in the gray area. I simply don't believe anymore there are any clean athletes in first 3 places in any sport where there are significant money involved. And most people are happy to support this indirectly via their support of things like Olympics which became lately just hunt for sponsors. (I don't watch those anymore, rather will spend the time actually training, with friends, in the nature etc.) Same for cars.
    - alex_duf 10y ago
      That's an interesting parallel
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      Wow. This makes me really glad I don't buy cars and don't patronize sports. What a load of crap!
- celticninja 10y ago
  Also it helps that it is not a US company.
  - eeZah7Ux 10y ago
    And it happens to be from a country with a strong economy.
hueving 10y ago
>multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. Is the implication here that causing economic harm is the same as murder?
- tomp 10y ago
  Pollution is murder (statistically).
  - justinjlynn 10y ago
    As is reproduction, in general. Of course, there's little point in pedantry.
    - bottled_poe 10y ago
      7% of humans ever born are not dead. Pedantry is alive and well here.
  - usrusr 10y ago
    Making cars is "statistical murder". Bad schools are "statistical murder". Selling cheesecake is "statistical murder". Enforce the laws you have to help keeping honest people honest, but please do not selectively blow individual cases out of proportion with gut appeal tactics.
    - tomp 10y ago
      All these examples are regulated by laws that control the extent of damage done. Clearly the society believes that the existence of these is, after accounting for the positive and negative effects, better than nonexistence. But, skirting the laws in most of these cases can result in harm/death, and should be treaded as such (e.g. selling cars with faulty brakes, selling cakes with too much trans fats... a bit harder to say for schooling noone has really figured out how to do it well on a large scale).
      - 10y ago
aibottle 10y ago
Exactly.
easytiger 10y ago
You fell for it.. this is US economic imperialism, and nothing to do about emissions.
- imagist 10y ago
  Maybe, but it's also justice being served. When a poor black man in America is arrested for a rape, it's racism and classism because a rich white man is far more likely to get away with that crime. But it's also justice. I don't think you would argue that we should let poor black men get away with rape just to make things more fair.
  - stefantalpalaru 10y ago
    > it's also justice being served Is it really? All the diesel manufacturers cheat and VW cheats the least: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-ran... http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-vehicle-tests-show-dramatic-variation-nox-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-new-eu http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-vehicle-tests-show...
  - zipwitch 10y ago
    When certain groups are exempt from the force of the law, while others feel its full weight, it is not justice, but rather a mockery of it.
    - imagist 10y ago
      See my response to your sibling comment.
  - iheartmemcache 10y ago
    It's selective justice. Imagine driving down in a 2009 Toyota Camry with your well dressed family on a well paved highway in Alabama at 78 mph in a 65 mph zone on a nice, clear sunny Sunday a safe distance away from the preceding car at the same velocity as quite literally every other car in every other lane you see. Clearly not posing a safety threat, not lane-weaving indicating any form of compromised faculties or dangerous behavior, no threat at all really. However, Smokey the Bear state trooper Bob decides he doesn't like the way you look. You could be black, you could be wearing a Ralph Lauren Polo with a NORML insignia on it and Bob just happens to hate pot, you could have an atheist bumper sticker and Bob just got on shift after a rousing sermon from Pastor Jedidiah. Justice imposed on selected individuals is not justice. Ethically, were he to enforce the law to the letter with an egalitarian approach, the first person he saw as he got on shift exceeding 65 should have been pulled over. As soon as that ticket was issued, he should have done so for the next person, ad infinitum until he was off-duty. In actuality, if every single arrested individual stopped one day and decided to exercise his or her constitutional right to see his day in court like that prep school[1] individual did, we'd see what would amount to be a DDoS on the system incapable of handling a caseload of such magnitude. Pragmatically, an ADA will use a very effective method - known colloquially as "charge stacking" - to intimidate the accused into pleaing out a charge he would likely beat[2]. Though I'm totally with you on the classist component - should Michael Jordan's son commit a crime, he'd be far less likely to be convicted than whitey-mc-Kentucky-Meth-Mouth Tim's son due to the same lack of resources afforded to him. [1] RE: your rape scenario -- Compare this aggressive attorney http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/28/us/new-hampshire-prep-rape-trial/ http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/28/us/new-hampshire-prep-rape... vs these less fortunate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case [2] Even more compelling is the motion for dismissal those defense attorneys could raise in aggregate on 6th amendment grounds. In the state of California, the 45 day cap could be breached fairly easily if all of the defense attorneys concurrently suggested to their clients to enter a not-guilty plea. You'd also see a marked decline in arbitrary traffic stops, as arresting officers would be forced to spend the day in court rather than in speed traps.

legulere 10y ago

I agree, however it seems like they only use VW to exemplify the issue, when pretty much all manufacturers are cheating.

Pyxl101 10y ago
I have not been closely following this scandal, so I was unaware that other car manufacturers have been indicted in emissions cheating. Could you share a source with more information about this?
- davewritescode 10y ago
  Not even just emissions, lots of companies play software tricks to game efficiency numbers. Chevy and Ford have both played games with the manual V8 sports cars that locks out the 1 -> 2 shift and force the driver to go 1 -> 4 to save gas when the computer sees the car accelerating at the same rate as the EPA test. The funniest thing was the Ford would sell you a software update to defeat skip shift under the guise of a "performance tune", at least that's how I defeated it while still keeping my warranty.
  - jdhn 10y ago
    I was under the impression that unless you bought an aftermarket tune the 1 -> 2 (and maybe even 1 -> 3) shift was always locked out no matter your rate of acceleration. Has this changed in the past few years?
    - mcguire 10y ago
      Not on my 2002 Corvette. First gear and low throttle opening invokes CAGS, the computer assisted hear selection.
- robin_reala 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Transgressions_by_other_manufacturers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#T... A French government report in 2016 investigated 86 different cars, and about 1/5th of those were found to comply with emission laws. Most did not.
  - hx87 10y ago
    How many of those are sold in the US?
- falkooo 10y ago
  Have a look at this talk of the latest CCC at 13:11 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions He talks about how it is possible that the cars achieve the low results in the testcycles but produce much higher emissions on the real road. The reverse engineering in the beginning of the task is also very interesting.
  - CommanderData 10y ago
    I was about to post this. VW have been playing dirty tactics even after the scandal.
    - holri 10y ago
      He demonstrated the same for Opel / GM.
  - AndyMcConachie 10y ago
    The companion talk about how the Dieselgate cases are transpiring is also worth a watch. https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8131-dieselgate_a_year_later#video&t=81 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8131-dieselgate_a_year_later#vid...
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  I thought it's a common knowledge most/all are doing it in one way or the other. Same as professional athletes in many sports, ie cycling - you cannot be really successful without any hacks/borderline cheating, it's more a matter of being few steps ahead of doping tests and current rules, thriving in the gray area. I simply don't believe anymore there are any clean athletes in first 3 places in any sport where there are significant money involved. And most people are happy to support this indirectly via their support of things like Olympics which became lately just hunt for sponsors. (I don't watch those anymore, rather will spend the time actually training, with friends, in the nature etc.) Same for cars.
  - alex_duf 10y ago
    That's an interesting parallel
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    Wow. This makes me really glad I don't buy cars and don't patronize sports. What a load of crap!
celticninja 10y ago
Also it helps that it is not a US company.
- eeZah7Ux 10y ago
  And it happens to be from a country with a strong economy.

hueving 10y ago

>multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. Is the implication here that causing economic harm is the same as murder?

tomp 10y ago
Pollution is murder (statistically).
- justinjlynn 10y ago
  As is reproduction, in general. Of course, there's little point in pedantry.
  - bottled_poe 10y ago
    7% of humans ever born are not dead. Pedantry is alive and well here.
- usrusr 10y ago
  Making cars is "statistical murder". Bad schools are "statistical murder". Selling cheesecake is "statistical murder". Enforce the laws you have to help keeping honest people honest, but please do not selectively blow individual cases out of proportion with gut appeal tactics.
  - tomp 10y ago
    All these examples are regulated by laws that control the extent of damage done. Clearly the society believes that the existence of these is, after accounting for the positive and negative effects, better than nonexistence. But, skirting the laws in most of these cases can result in harm/death, and should be treaded as such (e.g. selling cars with faulty brakes, selling cakes with too much trans fats... a bit harder to say for schooling noone has really figured out how to do it well on a large scale).
    - 10y ago

aibottle 10y ago

Exactly.

easytiger 10y ago

You fell for it.. this is US economic imperialism, and nothing to do about emissions.

imagist 10y ago
Maybe, but it's also justice being served. When a poor black man in America is arrested for a rape, it's racism and classism because a rich white man is far more likely to get away with that crime. But it's also justice. I don't think you would argue that we should let poor black men get away with rape just to make things more fair.
- stefantalpalaru 10y ago
  > it's also justice being served Is it really? All the diesel manufacturers cheat and VW cheats the least: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-ran... http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-vehicle-tests-show-dramatic-variation-nox-emissions-modern-diesel-cars-new-eu http://www.theicct.org/news/press-release-vehicle-tests-show...
- zipwitch 10y ago
  When certain groups are exempt from the force of the law, while others feel its full weight, it is not justice, but rather a mockery of it.
  - imagist 10y ago
    See my response to your sibling comment.
- iheartmemcache 10y ago
  It's selective justice. Imagine driving down in a 2009 Toyota Camry with your well dressed family on a well paved highway in Alabama at 78 mph in a 65 mph zone on a nice, clear sunny Sunday a safe distance away from the preceding car at the same velocity as quite literally every other car in every other lane you see. Clearly not posing a safety threat, not lane-weaving indicating any form of compromised faculties or dangerous behavior, no threat at all really. However, Smokey the Bear state trooper Bob decides he doesn't like the way you look. You could be black, you could be wearing a Ralph Lauren Polo with a NORML insignia on it and Bob just happens to hate pot, you could have an atheist bumper sticker and Bob just got on shift after a rousing sermon from Pastor Jedidiah. Justice imposed on selected individuals is not justice. Ethically, were he to enforce the law to the letter with an egalitarian approach, the first person he saw as he got on shift exceeding 65 should have been pulled over. As soon as that ticket was issued, he should have done so for the next person, ad infinitum until he was off-duty. In actuality, if every single arrested individual stopped one day and decided to exercise his or her constitutional right to see his day in court like that prep school[1] individual did, we'd see what would amount to be a DDoS on the system incapable of handling a caseload of such magnitude. Pragmatically, an ADA will use a very effective method - known colloquially as "charge stacking" - to intimidate the accused into pleaing out a charge he would likely beat[2]. Though I'm totally with you on the classist component - should Michael Jordan's son commit a crime, he'd be far less likely to be convicted than whitey-mc-Kentucky-Meth-Mouth Tim's son due to the same lack of resources afforded to him. [1] RE: your rape scenario -- Compare this aggressive attorney http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/28/us/new-hampshire-prep-rape-trial/ http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/28/us/new-hampshire-prep-rape... vs these less fortunate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case [2] Even more compelling is the motion for dismissal those defense attorneys could raise in aggregate on 6th amendment grounds. In the state of California, the 45 day cap could be breached fairly easily if all of the defense attorneys concurrently suggested to their clients to enter a not-guilty plea. You'd also see a marked decline in arbitrary traffic stops, as arresting officers would be forced to spend the day in court rather than in speed traps.