5 ms·

Isn't MMORPGs taking time very much a design issue? Not even inherent in the genre itself, but enforced intentionally to bind users? Tabletop RPGs have been ge

by mhd 10y ago

Isn't MMORPGs taking time very much a design issue? Not even inherent in the genre itself, but enforced intentionally to bind users? Tabletop RPGs have been getting by without "grinding" for decades, yet this is the current focus of most CRPGs (even more so than some past examples). There are plenty of activities that could be done with a more occasional time investment (quests/dungeons that don't require groups/guilds, fiddling with your own house/manor/hold etc.).

lloeki 10y ago
> Isn't MMORPGs taking time very much a design issue? This is what I liked in the original Guild Wars, because quickly enough you were reaching the level 20 cap, and then while you can acquire more loot and skills, this basically just increase your abilities through player skill by increasing possible tactical possibilities, not through a monotonic increase of avatar power basically based on play time, so you could readily rejoin friends even after a month without playing.
- Already__Taken 10y ago
  The first design of global agenda has a similar system. Everyone had 40(?) equip slots, that's it. Each item is level 1-4 of power. It's your choice to rock a top level shield but lowest weapons because you can't fit both. I can't remember what levels affected in that, maybe playzone access. It's nice because your skills as a player were you not the hours in the character. They ripped that system out for a traditional system.
Elhana 10y ago
Activities that could be done occasionally is basically a single player game - go play skyrim or fallout 4 - you don't need MMO for that. MMORPG should be left for the kids with enough spare time to raid 4+ hours a day. Many would disagree, but from my experience it is friends that keep you coming back every day and you can't make them this days with all this casual queues and playing few hours a week.
- Fnoord 10y ago
  > MMORPG should be left for the kids with enough spare time to raid 4+ hours a day. 4 hours a day raiding is bullshit. Most guilds raid 12 hours or so a week. The very competitive guilds traditionally only raid a lot in first 2-3 weeks (w/first week being split farm). They take time off work/uni then. Sco, for example, from best guild Method, is a Scottish fellow who worked in finance for various years (he's now full time earning money with his guild). With Legion, its the stuff outside of raiding which takes up a lot of time. The endless grind of artifact power, legendaries, and rare epic upgrades. It is possible to play casual though. I raid 6 hours a week (less than 1 hour a day), and out of 10 we're only 2 bosses behind on Mythic (the toughest difficult). With the last boss being exceptionally hard.
- sgt101 10y ago
  This - sorta... There are several different types of community that MMORPG's can sustain, but the multi-player bit is the big ingredient. Folks can be selling crafts, raiding or questing, but the critical bit is that n-people should be needed. The bigger n is the more compelling the driver (I think). WOW lost a lot of luster when 40 mans got retired...
  - marcus_holmes 10y ago
    I hated 40-man raids. They just weren't fun. Cat-herding 40 people, the endless waiting, dc's, egos and fights. No fun at all. My best memories of WoW raids were the drunken Friday night guild runs through UBRS. We knew the bosses well enough so that they didn't really require any effort or co-ordination and we were free to chat and talk crap amongst ourselves. Our tank usually got so drunk by the time we got to the end that we were glad the hunter had to kite the boss away. I had to stop playing because the time commitment required to be an active member of the raid group got ridiculous. Literally every evening and most of every weekend. If you couldn't do that then you couldn't compete. Stuff that, this is a hobby not a job.
- mhd 10y ago
  This is a bit of a false dichotomy. A game catering better to casual gaming doesn't preclude more "intense" scenarios. With a more varied design, you can both satisfy someone spending 30 minutes after work and a whole group doing a multi-hour mission (which, TBH, shouldn't just be a "raid", either). Never mind that issues with meaningless grinding are shared by both single-player CRPGS and MMORPGS. (And leveling the whole world along with your PC is a very unsatisfying solution).
mfukar 10y ago
All games require the customer to devote time. Some more than others. Tabletop RPGs require time spent not in grinding, but other tasks, most notably roleplaying.
parenthephobia 10y ago
It's easier - for a skilled GM - to produce engaging new content for a tabletop RPG than it is to produce the same for an MMORPG. The GM only needs to come up with an idea that works for their group of - say - 4 players, whereas the MMORPG vendor also needs to come up with artwork and code and ensure that the content is balanced for thousands - or more - of players at different stages of development and with different playing styles. MMORPGs feature grind because without it the players would run out of content before new content was available: then they'd get bored and quit. Or, if the content was produced quickly enough, it would likely lack sufficient quality control and players wouldn't like playing new content, with the same result. Of course, the more money the vendor is able to put into creating new content, the less grind the game needs to depend upon. And if the game has many social players, their social interactions provide another mechanism to keep players interested after they run out of content. Eve is a good example of an MMO where player interactions are a big part of what keeps players in the game.
- Fnoord 10y ago
  How does a non tabletop RPG player meet other (potential) players?

by mhd 10y ago

lloeki 10y ago

> Isn't MMORPGs taking time very much a design issue? This is what I liked in the original Guild Wars, because quickly enough you were reaching the level 20 cap, and then while you can acquire more loot and skills, this basically just increase your abilities through player skill by increasing possible tactical possibilities, not through a monotonic increase of avatar power basically based on play time, so you could readily rejoin friends even after a month without playing.

Already__Taken 10y ago
The first design of global agenda has a similar system. Everyone had 40(?) equip slots, that's it. Each item is level 1-4 of power. It's your choice to rock a top level shield but lowest weapons because you can't fit both. I can't remember what levels affected in that, maybe playzone access. It's nice because your skills as a player were you not the hours in the character. They ripped that system out for a traditional system.

Elhana 10y ago

Activities that could be done occasionally is basically a single player game - go play skyrim or fallout 4 - you don't need MMO for that. MMORPG should be left for the kids with enough spare time to raid 4+ hours a day. Many would disagree, but from my experience it is friends that keep you coming back every day and you can't make them this days with all this casual queues and playing few hours a week.

Fnoord 10y ago
> MMORPG should be left for the kids with enough spare time to raid 4+ hours a day. 4 hours a day raiding is bullshit. Most guilds raid 12 hours or so a week. The very competitive guilds traditionally only raid a lot in first 2-3 weeks (w/first week being split farm). They take time off work/uni then. Sco, for example, from best guild Method, is a Scottish fellow who worked in finance for various years (he's now full time earning money with his guild). With Legion, its the stuff outside of raiding which takes up a lot of time. The endless grind of artifact power, legendaries, and rare epic upgrades. It is possible to play casual though. I raid 6 hours a week (less than 1 hour a day), and out of 10 we're only 2 bosses behind on Mythic (the toughest difficult). With the last boss being exceptionally hard.
sgt101 10y ago
This - sorta... There are several different types of community that MMORPG's can sustain, but the multi-player bit is the big ingredient. Folks can be selling crafts, raiding or questing, but the critical bit is that n-people should be needed. The bigger n is the more compelling the driver (I think). WOW lost a lot of luster when 40 mans got retired...
- marcus_holmes 10y ago
  I hated 40-man raids. They just weren't fun. Cat-herding 40 people, the endless waiting, dc's, egos and fights. No fun at all. My best memories of WoW raids were the drunken Friday night guild runs through UBRS. We knew the bosses well enough so that they didn't really require any effort or co-ordination and we were free to chat and talk crap amongst ourselves. Our tank usually got so drunk by the time we got to the end that we were glad the hunter had to kite the boss away. I had to stop playing because the time commitment required to be an active member of the raid group got ridiculous. Literally every evening and most of every weekend. If you couldn't do that then you couldn't compete. Stuff that, this is a hobby not a job.
mhd 10y ago
This is a bit of a false dichotomy. A game catering better to casual gaming doesn't preclude more "intense" scenarios. With a more varied design, you can both satisfy someone spending 30 minutes after work and a whole group doing a multi-hour mission (which, TBH, shouldn't just be a "raid", either). Never mind that issues with meaningless grinding are shared by both single-player CRPGS and MMORPGS. (And leveling the whole world along with your PC is a very unsatisfying solution).

mfukar 10y ago

All games require the customer to devote time. Some more than others. Tabletop RPGs require time spent not in grinding, but other tasks, most notably roleplaying.

parenthephobia 10y ago

It's easier - for a skilled GM - to produce engaging new content for a tabletop RPG than it is to produce the same for an MMORPG. The GM only needs to come up with an idea that works for their group of - say - 4 players, whereas the MMORPG vendor also needs to come up with artwork and code and ensure that the content is balanced for thousands - or more - of players at different stages of development and with different playing styles. MMORPGs feature grind because without it the players would run out of content before new content was available: then they'd get bored and quit. Or, if the content was produced quickly enough, it would likely lack sufficient quality control and players wouldn't like playing new content, with the same result. Of course, the more money the vendor is able to put into creating new content, the less grind the game needs to depend upon. And if the game has many social players, their social interactions provide another mechanism to keep players interested after they run out of content. Eve is a good example of an MMO where player interactions are a big part of what keeps players in the game.

Fnoord 10y ago
How does a non tabletop RPG player meet other (potential) players?