8 ms·

A win win for everyone but the drivers. Sure they can quit but doesn't excuse Uber from using its negotiating power against exploiting them wherever possible.

by kirykl 10y ago

zeroer 10y ago
Don't worry. Having drivers is not the long term plan anyways.
- jayajay 10y ago
  This. People who drive automobiles for a living should start investing in new skills now.
  - pyrale 10y ago
    They aren't paid enough to invest, though.
- pyrale 10y ago
  The more I hear this, the more i see it as a ploy to drown the working conditions complaint. I do not believe Uber invests nearly as much in autonomous cars as it invests in challenging the law and making PR about their lobbying being a civic fight.
synicalx 10y ago
I think there's enough readily available information on how Uber operates for want-to-be drivers to make an informed decision on whether or not they should 'work' for Uber.
- wpietri 10y ago
  Try talking to some ex-Uber drivers. I don't think I've spoke with one that felt adequately informed by Uber. There may be adequate information now, but only because enough people bought in to Uber's marketing had poor experiences, and have talked about them. I also don't think "enough readily available information" is a good standard to judge commerce by. There's enough readily available information out there for sufficiently prepared people to not get sucked into, say, a Ponzi scheme. But that does not absolve somebody running a scam, because they are doing their best to find people not yet prepared and then energetically deceive them. My standard is more like, "Does the entity with more power use that power in a way that the entity with less power later comes to find harmful?" By that metric, I don't think Uber scores particularly well.
  - synicalx 10y ago
    A ponzi scheme is completely different to Uber so comparing the two isn't helpful. Uber is comparable to working as an freelance/indy contractor, in fact it's almost exactly the same. Uber has always been clear about how it works for the drivers, and not reading/understanding terms and conditions isn't an excuse for not taking responsibility for yourself. Their early marketing quite literally spelled out that this is something you can do with your own pre-existing car to make a bit of extra cash on the side. In fact this is STILL the prevailing message you get from their website, let me quote a few lines at you; "Got a car? Turn it into a money machine. The city is buzzing and Uber makes it easy for you to cash in on the action. Plus, you've already got everything you need to get started." "Need something outside the 9 to 5? As an independent contractor with Uber, you’ve got freedom and flexibility to drive whenever you have time." Somehow, and I really cannot fathom how, some people have interpreted this as "Go out and buy/lease a car, we'll give you a full time job".
    - wpietri 10y ago
      First, I didn't compare them. I picked a clear example to make it clear where your proposed ethical standard breaks down. Second, having freelanced for years, Uber is nothing like that. Freelancing operates in a marketplace where you can shop your skills to many purchasers. Uber aspires to be a monopsony. Third, you indulge in pretty typical "blame the victim" logic. Uber is the more powerful party here. A driver has some information; Uber has vastly more information. If a bunch of drivers just happen to all make the same mistake, one that benefits Uber, then sure, you could blame the drivers. But I think it's more reasonable to blame the entity who sets up the conditions from which they profit. And your last paragraph would be much more plausible if Uber didn't actively promote car leasing: https://www.uber.com/drive/vehicle-solutions/ https://www.uber.com/drive/vehicle-solutions/
      - synicalx 10y ago
        First, you're evaluating both against the same criteria - that's comparing. Second, Uber is exactly like freelancing in a lot of ways - you get paid per job, you aren't entitled to paid leave, and running costs are your problem. Regardless of what you assume Uber aspires to be, the fact is there a whole range of ride sharing options out there so people can absolutely shop around. Third - Blaming the victim requires a victim, for a victim to exist there also needs to be an offender. In your mind Uber is the offender because they are somehow the "more powerful party", which only really makes sense in a small number of cases. Uber is reliant on people signing on to drive for them, and unless said drivers are somehow indebted to Uber or contractually obligated to drive for them I fail to see how Uber has much power over them. Happy to change my mind on this if you can show me a situation in which Uber has some sort of excessive control over one or more of their drivers. Uber "actively promote" car leasing in a small number of locations as an alternative to supplying your own car, and even then it's not the main message of their driver-focused advertising. At no point in signing up to be a driver will you be instructed to lease a car. Once again, people have all the numbers available and it's up to them to work out if it's financially viable for them to lease a car from Uber or from anyone else.
- kirykl 10y ago
  Like their predatory lease program. The terms are clear as mud for the desperate person this attracts. http://image.et.xchangeleasing.com/lib/fe9412737265067b77/m/1/17-0106_Xchange_OneSheeter_WestCoast.pdf http://image.et.xchangeleasing.com/lib/fe9412737265067b77/m/... https://consumerist.com/2016/05/31/5-things-you-should-know-about-ubers-xchange-leasing-program-its-costs/ https://consumerist.com/2016/05/31/5-things-you-should-know-... Are pay day loan patrons really making an informed decision because the interest percentage is written on the wall?
  - synicalx 10y ago
    All car leasing schemes are expensive in the long run, this one seems to fall in the middle ground - less upfront costs than most, more expensive ongoing. But the cost and repayment method is all quite clear, anyone with a few minutes and a calculator can work out if this is a financially sound option for them. If you can't understand what you're signing then you shouldn't be signing it, very simple really. For some people this leasing scheme would be fine, for other's it could lead to financial trouble - Uber doesn't have to work that out for people. Not sure where pay day loans come into this? Uber has some kind of once off upfront pay advance incentive thing, but there's no interest and the terms are something quite generous like 15 weeks so it's not even remotely like a pay day loan.
    - kirykl 10y ago
      This one takes your car payment out of your pay check. Stop driving and the negative balance accrues. You can work it down by driving. In a traditional lease you can default and get sued. In this case you can default by stopping work, and accumulate a negative balance. If you start working again the balance due is taken out of your next paycheck-essentially becoming a slave.
  - pfarnsworth 10y ago
    Do you actually know anything about their lease program? The lease program is designed for Uber drivers who want to work full-time. There's no mileage limit, and it's meant to just return the vehicle, so things like residual value, etc are meaningless. Uber drivers can easily put on 70k miles in a year, something you never could do on a traditional lease. And you can walk away from the lease with a 2 weeks notice. How exactly is this predatory? If you're only driving minimally, then it's definitely not a good deal, but it's not meant for those drivers. It's for drivers who drive full-time, ie. 40+ hrs a week.
fsaneq2 10y ago
Which is a problem why? Uber is not a charity.

A win win for everyone but the drivers. Sure they can quit but doesn't excuse Uber from using its negotiating power against exploiting them wherever possible.

by kirykl 10y ago

A win win for everyone but the drivers. Sure they can quit but doesn't excuse Uber from using its negotiating power against exploiting them wherever possible.

zeroer 10y ago

Don't worry. Having drivers is not the long term plan anyways.

jayajay 10y ago
This. People who drive automobiles for a living should start investing in new skills now.
- pyrale 10y ago
  They aren't paid enough to invest, though.
pyrale 10y ago
The more I hear this, the more i see it as a ploy to drown the working conditions complaint. I do not believe Uber invests nearly as much in autonomous cars as it invests in challenging the law and making PR about their lobbying being a civic fight.

synicalx 10y ago

I think there's enough readily available information on how Uber operates for want-to-be drivers to make an informed decision on whether or not they should 'work' for Uber.

wpietri 10y ago
Try talking to some ex-Uber drivers. I don't think I've spoke with one that felt adequately informed by Uber. There may be adequate information now, but only because enough people bought in to Uber's marketing had poor experiences, and have talked about them. I also don't think "enough readily available information" is a good standard to judge commerce by. There's enough readily available information out there for sufficiently prepared people to not get sucked into, say, a Ponzi scheme. But that does not absolve somebody running a scam, because they are doing their best to find people not yet prepared and then energetically deceive them. My standard is more like, "Does the entity with more power use that power in a way that the entity with less power later comes to find harmful?" By that metric, I don't think Uber scores particularly well.
- synicalx 10y ago
  A ponzi scheme is completely different to Uber so comparing the two isn't helpful. Uber is comparable to working as an freelance/indy contractor, in fact it's almost exactly the same. Uber has always been clear about how it works for the drivers, and not reading/understanding terms and conditions isn't an excuse for not taking responsibility for yourself. Their early marketing quite literally spelled out that this is something you can do with your own pre-existing car to make a bit of extra cash on the side. In fact this is STILL the prevailing message you get from their website, let me quote a few lines at you; "Got a car? Turn it into a money machine. The city is buzzing and Uber makes it easy for you to cash in on the action. Plus, you've already got everything you need to get started." "Need something outside the 9 to 5? As an independent contractor with Uber, you’ve got freedom and flexibility to drive whenever you have time." Somehow, and I really cannot fathom how, some people have interpreted this as "Go out and buy/lease a car, we'll give you a full time job".
  - wpietri 10y ago
    First, I didn't compare them. I picked a clear example to make it clear where your proposed ethical standard breaks down. Second, having freelanced for years, Uber is nothing like that. Freelancing operates in a marketplace where you can shop your skills to many purchasers. Uber aspires to be a monopsony. Third, you indulge in pretty typical "blame the victim" logic. Uber is the more powerful party here. A driver has some information; Uber has vastly more information. If a bunch of drivers just happen to all make the same mistake, one that benefits Uber, then sure, you could blame the drivers. But I think it's more reasonable to blame the entity who sets up the conditions from which they profit. And your last paragraph would be much more plausible if Uber didn't actively promote car leasing: https://www.uber.com/drive/vehicle-solutions/ https://www.uber.com/drive/vehicle-solutions/
    - synicalx 10y ago
      First, you're evaluating both against the same criteria - that's comparing. Second, Uber is exactly like freelancing in a lot of ways - you get paid per job, you aren't entitled to paid leave, and running costs are your problem. Regardless of what you assume Uber aspires to be, the fact is there a whole range of ride sharing options out there so people can absolutely shop around. Third - Blaming the victim requires a victim, for a victim to exist there also needs to be an offender. In your mind Uber is the offender because they are somehow the "more powerful party", which only really makes sense in a small number of cases. Uber is reliant on people signing on to drive for them, and unless said drivers are somehow indebted to Uber or contractually obligated to drive for them I fail to see how Uber has much power over them. Happy to change my mind on this if you can show me a situation in which Uber has some sort of excessive control over one or more of their drivers. Uber "actively promote" car leasing in a small number of locations as an alternative to supplying your own car, and even then it's not the main message of their driver-focused advertising. At no point in signing up to be a driver will you be instructed to lease a car. Once again, people have all the numbers available and it's up to them to work out if it's financially viable for them to lease a car from Uber or from anyone else.
kirykl 10y ago
Like their predatory lease program. The terms are clear as mud for the desperate person this attracts. http://image.et.xchangeleasing.com/lib/fe9412737265067b77/m/1/17-0106_Xchange_OneSheeter_WestCoast.pdf http://image.et.xchangeleasing.com/lib/fe9412737265067b77/m/... https://consumerist.com/2016/05/31/5-things-you-should-know-about-ubers-xchange-leasing-program-its-costs/ https://consumerist.com/2016/05/31/5-things-you-should-know-... Are pay day loan patrons really making an informed decision because the interest percentage is written on the wall?
- synicalx 10y ago
  All car leasing schemes are expensive in the long run, this one seems to fall in the middle ground - less upfront costs than most, more expensive ongoing. But the cost and repayment method is all quite clear, anyone with a few minutes and a calculator can work out if this is a financially sound option for them. If you can't understand what you're signing then you shouldn't be signing it, very simple really. For some people this leasing scheme would be fine, for other's it could lead to financial trouble - Uber doesn't have to work that out for people. Not sure where pay day loans come into this? Uber has some kind of once off upfront pay advance incentive thing, but there's no interest and the terms are something quite generous like 15 weeks so it's not even remotely like a pay day loan.
  - kirykl 10y ago
    This one takes your car payment out of your pay check. Stop driving and the negative balance accrues. You can work it down by driving. In a traditional lease you can default and get sued. In this case you can default by stopping work, and accumulate a negative balance. If you start working again the balance due is taken out of your next paycheck-essentially becoming a slave.
- pfarnsworth 10y ago
  Do you actually know anything about their lease program? The lease program is designed for Uber drivers who want to work full-time. There's no mileage limit, and it's meant to just return the vehicle, so things like residual value, etc are meaningless. Uber drivers can easily put on 70k miles in a year, something you never could do on a traditional lease. And you can walk away from the lease with a 2 weeks notice. How exactly is this predatory? If you're only driving minimally, then it's definitely not a good deal, but it's not meant for those drivers. It's for drivers who drive full-time, ie. 40+ hrs a week.

fsaneq2 10y ago

Which is a problem why? Uber is not a charity.