4 ms·

> the simplified "us vs them" mentality, the complete disregard for policy nuance and critical thinking Pray tell, to what extent would the median-intelligence

by mmirate 10y ago

> the simplified "us vs them" mentality, the complete disregard for policy nuance and critical thinking Pray tell, to what extent would the median-intelligence US citizen understand the words "nuance" and "critical thinking", let alone possess, to a nontrivial extent, the virtues named by those words? After all, the "us vs them" mental data-structure suffices for many things that many people enjoy, such as spectator sports. (And in expressing how HN discussions are in a bubble insofar as participants mostly possess undergraduate educations and/or jobs that normally require such; simply put, that's not a microcosm of the entire US population.) (I'm not saying your suggestion isn't what must happen; I'm saying it isn't in the realm of what can happen.)

losteric 10y ago
You're being extremely condescending, everyone is capable of free thinking. Prisoners of Plato's allegorical cave are blind through a lack of opportunity, not a lack of ability. Critically-minded citizens should act as Socratic teachers. Our job is to ask the right questions, gently probing until we've disassembled their chains and lead them to the light. It's a slow path, taken one question at a time.
- eropple 10y ago
  In a vacuum, I would applaud your thinking. Unfortunately, the nature of a country of three hundred million people means that you've got to scale, and Socratic dialogue doesn't scale. Of course, we've had our educational system trashed, so I'm not sure that's an answer, either...
  - mmirate 10y ago
    Exactly. Not to mention, that not everyone is within reach of a critically-minded citizen; after all, population-density outside of urban areas is very low.
  - losteric 10y ago
    Unscalable, perhaps, but also battle tested by thousands of years of history. What is the alternative? If the problem reduces to our crippled education system, what else can we do besides individual citizen engagement and education? This is a problem that's been building up over decades. It will take at least as long to fix... if not longer, given our political disadvantage.
    - eropple 10y ago
      > Unscalable, perhaps, but also battle tested by thousands of years of history. What is the alternative? I dunno. It's a hard problem. Plato liked philosopher kings. Maybe we try that. (Disclaimer: this is a joke. A joke is here. Do not well-actually me, humorless internet denizen. Thanks in advance.)
      - losteric 10y ago
        That's my point. Sometimes solutions simply aren't scalable... I think democracy is one of them. That's not a bad thing. We have a solution, we know we can implement it. It's unscalable but still very easy on the individual level.
        eropple 10y ago
        In a way, I agree. In another--activating the people to actually do it is not very easy, and thinking retail when the problem is wholesale seems to be a pretty good way to keep having things go to pot. I have some ideas on this, I'm working on one at the moment in my spare time, but...well. We'll see. ;)
        losteric 10y ago
        Well, I'm curious to see what you're thinking is better. History has shown us the two sides of this coin... broadcasted dogmatic thinking (audience > 100), and empowering critical thinking at a smaller scale (audience ~ 10). The former tends to infect societies that have failed at the latter. We've yet to see anyone achieve broadcasted critical thinking.
- mmirate 10y ago
  And one square-mile at a time. The Southeast alone has acres upon acres of rural settlements (okay, fine, towns) with low population-density; it would take a significant expedition to spread "opportunity" to a noticeable portion of that population.
  - losteric 10y ago
    I wouldn't suggest "critical thinking" missions - change must come from within. It's not like rural areas are completely red washed... most areas are below a 70/30 split, and the middle third are on the fence. We just need to help the 30% talk with the middle 30%.

by mmirate 10y ago

losteric 10y ago

You're being extremely condescending, everyone is capable of free thinking. Prisoners of Plato's allegorical cave are blind through a lack of opportunity, not a lack of ability. Critically-minded citizens should act as Socratic teachers. Our job is to ask the right questions, gently probing until we've disassembled their chains and lead them to the light. It's a slow path, taken one question at a time.

eropple 10y ago
In a vacuum, I would applaud your thinking. Unfortunately, the nature of a country of three hundred million people means that you've got to scale, and Socratic dialogue doesn't scale. Of course, we've had our educational system trashed, so I'm not sure that's an answer, either...
- mmirate 10y ago
  Exactly. Not to mention, that not everyone is within reach of a critically-minded citizen; after all, population-density outside of urban areas is very low.
- losteric 10y ago
  Unscalable, perhaps, but also battle tested by thousands of years of history. What is the alternative? If the problem reduces to our crippled education system, what else can we do besides individual citizen engagement and education? This is a problem that's been building up over decades. It will take at least as long to fix... if not longer, given our political disadvantage.
  - eropple 10y ago
    > Unscalable, perhaps, but also battle tested by thousands of years of history. What is the alternative? I dunno. It's a hard problem. Plato liked philosopher kings. Maybe we try that. (Disclaimer: this is a joke. A joke is here. Do not well-actually me, humorless internet denizen. Thanks in advance.)
    - losteric 10y ago
      That's my point. Sometimes solutions simply aren't scalable... I think democracy is one of them. That's not a bad thing. We have a solution, we know we can implement it. It's unscalable but still very easy on the individual level.
      - eropple 10y ago
        In a way, I agree. In another--activating the people to actually do it is not very easy, and thinking retail when the problem is wholesale seems to be a pretty good way to keep having things go to pot. I have some ideas on this, I'm working on one at the moment in my spare time, but...well. We'll see. ;)
        losteric 10y ago
        Well, I'm curious to see what you're thinking is better. History has shown us the two sides of this coin... broadcasted dogmatic thinking (audience > 100), and empowering critical thinking at a smaller scale (audience ~ 10). The former tends to infect societies that have failed at the latter. We've yet to see anyone achieve broadcasted critical thinking.
mmirate 10y ago
And one square-mile at a time. The Southeast alone has acres upon acres of rural settlements (okay, fine, towns) with low population-density; it would take a significant expedition to spread "opportunity" to a noticeable portion of that population.
- losteric 10y ago
  I wouldn't suggest "critical thinking" missions - change must come from within. It's not like rural areas are completely red washed... most areas are below a 70/30 split, and the middle third are on the fence. We just need to help the 30% talk with the middle 30%.