4 ms·

You have very negative opinions about conservative people. I guess I can't be sure they are wrong, but they seem wrong based on the conservatives I know, follow

You have very negative opinions about conservative people. I guess I can't be sure they are wrong, but they seem wrong based on the conservatives I know, follow on Twitter, etc.

CalChris 10y ago
Conservatives, doubtlessly conservatives that you know, just elected Donald Trump President of the United States. Let that sink in for a moment and then reflect on what conservatism even means.
- brighteyes 10y ago
  I dislike Trump and voted for Clinton obviously. I'm sad they won. But why should I be surprised that the right-leaning half of the US voted for the Republican candidate?
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >But why should I be surprised that the right-leaning half of the US voted for the Republican candidate? Because the Republican candidate deeply disagreed with most Republican ideas. For instance, he openly wants his government to "pick winners" in the marketplace and has repeatedly said he won't cut Social Security. For the Party to fall in behind him on personality alone, while he speaks one heresy after another against their purported ideology, shows that they no longer have an ideology they preach in good-faith. They've become a bad-faith party, distinct from conservative parties in other countries, who just seek power, connections, and wealth for themselves, and say whatever's necessary to get it.
    - brighteyes 10y ago
      That's not at all what I hear from conservative people. First, yes, Trump disagreed with a bunch of typical Republican ideas. But those turned out to be things that Republican voters wanted, even if the Republican party members didn't. Like his stance on trade. Second, Trump loudly championed a lot of typical Republican causes, like the "Repeal and Replace Obamacare" mantra, being "pro-life", etc. Those seem like terrible ideas/policies to me and probably you, but Trump is a typical conservative on those. So no, it wasn't on "personality alone."
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        >Second, Trump loudly championed a lot of typical Republican causes, like the "Repeal and Replace Obamacare" mantra, being "pro-life", etc. He also disagreed loudly with those same positions at other times. He just doesn't consistently toe the conservative ideological line handed down by Republican Party leaders and intellectuals. Now, that's definitely part of why his voter base like him, but it also means that he's still not an ideological conservative of the typical kind.
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    The specifics should surprise you. For example, the fact that evangelicals voted for a guy who publicly bragged about grabbing women by their genitals, was accused of raping a minor, and bought beauty pageants for the sole purpose of being able to walk in unannounced on the contestants naked in the backstage, should have reviled anyone who considers themselves a devout Christian. But it didn't, apparently, because... I don't know.
- CalChris 10y ago
  You are normalizing Trump as the Republican candidate. No.
  - WalterSear 10y ago
    I'm afraid that you are only fooling yourself. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/donald-trump-republican-nomination-2016-election/ http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/donald-trump-republic...
    - CalChris 10y ago
      No one is fooling anyone. http://mitchellarchives.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/hitler-named-chancellor-article-2.jpg http://mitchellarchives.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/hitle...
  - eropple 10y ago
    "The Republican candidate" is, as regrettable as that is, correct. Question of fact, not of norms. Normalizing as "the conservative candidate" would get my dander up, because he's not. If you were to then suggest that Republicans are not conservative--well, duh. ;)
  - darpa_escapee 10y ago
    What's wrong with this? He ran and was endorsed on the GOP ticket.
    - CalChris 10y ago
      You should ask yourself the Falsifiability question: What could possibly be wrong with this if he ran and was endorsed on the GOP ticket? Does the mere act of running on the GOP ticket absolve Trump of everything and anything? That appears to be the case for his supporters. Less so for the rest of us and when I refuse to accept Trump as normal, that is what I'm saying.
      - eropple 10y ago
eropple 10y ago
I have very negative opinions of conservative ideology because, having been inculcated in it and having refined my ability to think enough that I was able to reject my priors and escape from it--well, I feel like I damned well should, it's hard to find something misleading and epistemically dangerous and not feel "negative" about it. On the other hand, I am mostly sympathetic towards conservative people. Most have been sold a bill of goods and were never fortunate enough to stumble across, or have delivered unto them, the structural education necessary to evaluate it one way or another. (This includes functionally-trade-schooled "engineers". The best thing that ever happened to me in my fundamental learning was having to take economics, philosophy, and sociology classes. The idea that a "Bachelor's of Science" can be granted with only minimal exposure to the humanities is near-criminal.) Where my sympathy fails is when the proponents of that ideology wish to use it to harm other people. That is the chilly response that conservatism gets in academia and it must not be ignored: when you are the self-appointed standard-bearer of a worldview where women, gays, and minorities are second-class citizens, when you are the representative of a worldview that wants fewer people to be able to vote so you can win, when "root, hog or die" is accompanied by no end of policies to ensure that Those People don't get that middle option and only sometimes get the first--of course people are going to react poorly to you. Don't actively shit on other people and they won't shit on you back.
badlucklottery 10y ago
>they seem wrong based on the conservatives I know, follow on Twitter, etc. I think the problem is that you need to define what conservatism is to you. Otherwise it's hard to really have a discussion about the label. He's defined at least partially what it is to him ("conservative movement that attacks facts because facts refuse to coexist with their ideology") and frankly it's a group I can see many rational people being negative about. But if conservatism to you is just slightly right of center on most things, I don't think people would be very negative about them and I definitely can't see them having any more trouble than usual on a college campus. Their views are going to be challenged there but that's kind of the point of college. And if being challenged is too high a mountain for them, a career in science isn't going to work out.
- eropple 10y ago
  There is a certain resistance to challenge that you characterize amongst even more moderate "conservatives". Despite the notion of conservatism being...y'know, conservative, there's a very post-modern, all-narratives-are-valid notion that I think (circling back to the OP of this discussion) fuels the "fake news" thing more aggressively on the right than it does the left. The left encourages you to find your own truth about yourself; the right encourages you to generate your own truths about things external to you. When you believe a minority viewpoint, you're going to be challenged more often than the mainstream--and you can refine your viewpoint under fire and make it better (the inability to make it better because there was no better to be made was a large part of what pushed me away from conservatism), or you can adopt a siege mentality and hide from it. I find that cowardice endemic to the modern right and its fragility the centerpiece of the hatred of even mild challenges.
- brighteyes 10y ago
  > I think the problem is that you need to define what conservatism is to you. I'm not a conservative, so I don't think I should be the one to define what it means? Instead, I listen to people that self-identify as conservative.
  - badlucklottery 10y ago

You have very negative opinions about conservative people. I guess I can't be sure they are wrong, but they seem wrong based on the conservatives I know, follow on Twitter, etc.

CalChris 10y ago

Conservatives, doubtlessly conservatives that you know, just elected Donald Trump President of the United States. Let that sink in for a moment and then reflect on what conservatism even means.

brighteyes 10y ago
I dislike Trump and voted for Clinton obviously. I'm sad they won. But why should I be surprised that the right-leaning half of the US voted for the Republican candidate?
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  >But why should I be surprised that the right-leaning half of the US voted for the Republican candidate? Because the Republican candidate deeply disagreed with most Republican ideas. For instance, he openly wants his government to "pick winners" in the marketplace and has repeatedly said he won't cut Social Security. For the Party to fall in behind him on personality alone, while he speaks one heresy after another against their purported ideology, shows that they no longer have an ideology they preach in good-faith. They've become a bad-faith party, distinct from conservative parties in other countries, who just seek power, connections, and wealth for themselves, and say whatever's necessary to get it.
  - brighteyes 10y ago
    That's not at all what I hear from conservative people. First, yes, Trump disagreed with a bunch of typical Republican ideas. But those turned out to be things that Republican voters wanted, even if the Republican party members didn't. Like his stance on trade. Second, Trump loudly championed a lot of typical Republican causes, like the "Repeal and Replace Obamacare" mantra, being "pro-life", etc. Those seem like terrible ideas/policies to me and probably you, but Trump is a typical conservative on those. So no, it wasn't on "personality alone."
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      >Second, Trump loudly championed a lot of typical Republican causes, like the "Repeal and Replace Obamacare" mantra, being "pro-life", etc. He also disagreed loudly with those same positions at other times. He just doesn't consistently toe the conservative ideological line handed down by Republican Party leaders and intellectuals. Now, that's definitely part of why his voter base like him, but it also means that he's still not an ideological conservative of the typical kind.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  The specifics should surprise you. For example, the fact that evangelicals voted for a guy who publicly bragged about grabbing women by their genitals, was accused of raping a minor, and bought beauty pageants for the sole purpose of being able to walk in unannounced on the contestants naked in the backstage, should have reviled anyone who considers themselves a devout Christian. But it didn't, apparently, because... I don't know.
CalChris 10y ago
You are normalizing Trump as the Republican candidate. No.
- WalterSear 10y ago
  I'm afraid that you are only fooling yourself. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/donald-trump-republican-nomination-2016-election/ http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/19/politics/donald-trump-republic...
  - CalChris 10y ago
    No one is fooling anyone. http://mitchellarchives.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/hitler-named-chancellor-article-2.jpg http://mitchellarchives.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/hitle...
- eropple 10y ago
  "The Republican candidate" is, as regrettable as that is, correct. Question of fact, not of norms. Normalizing as "the conservative candidate" would get my dander up, because he's not. If you were to then suggest that Republicans are not conservative--well, duh. ;)
- darpa_escapee 10y ago
  What's wrong with this? He ran and was endorsed on the GOP ticket.
  - CalChris 10y ago
    You should ask yourself the Falsifiability question: What could possibly be wrong with this if he ran and was endorsed on the GOP ticket? Does the mere act of running on the GOP ticket absolve Trump of everything and anything? That appears to be the case for his supporters. Less so for the rest of us and when I refuse to accept Trump as normal, that is what I'm saying.
    - eropple 10y ago

eropple 10y ago

I have very negative opinions of conservative ideology because, having been inculcated in it and having refined my ability to think enough that I was able to reject my priors and escape from it--well, I feel like I damned well should, it's hard to find something misleading and epistemically dangerous and not feel "negative" about it. On the other hand, I am mostly sympathetic towards conservative people. Most have been sold a bill of goods and were never fortunate enough to stumble across, or have delivered unto them, the structural education necessary to evaluate it one way or another. (This includes functionally-trade-schooled "engineers". The best thing that ever happened to me in my fundamental learning was having to take economics, philosophy, and sociology classes. The idea that a "Bachelor's of Science" can be granted with only minimal exposure to the humanities is near-criminal.) Where my sympathy fails is when the proponents of that ideology wish to use it to harm other people. That is the chilly response that conservatism gets in academia and it must not be ignored: when you are the self-appointed standard-bearer of a worldview where women, gays, and minorities are second-class citizens, when you are the representative of a worldview that wants fewer people to be able to vote so you can win, when "root, hog or die" is accompanied by no end of policies to ensure that Those People don't get that middle option and only sometimes get the first--of course people are going to react poorly to you. Don't actively shit on other people and they won't shit on you back.

badlucklottery 10y ago

>they seem wrong based on the conservatives I know, follow on Twitter, etc. I think the problem is that you need to define what conservatism is to you. Otherwise it's hard to really have a discussion about the label. He's defined at least partially what it is to him ("conservative movement that attacks facts because facts refuse to coexist with their ideology") and frankly it's a group I can see many rational people being negative about. But if conservatism to you is just slightly right of center on most things, I don't think people would be very negative about them and I definitely can't see them having any more trouble than usual on a college campus. Their views are going to be challenged there but that's kind of the point of college. And if being challenged is too high a mountain for them, a career in science isn't going to work out.

eropple 10y ago
There is a certain resistance to challenge that you characterize amongst even more moderate "conservatives". Despite the notion of conservatism being...y'know, conservative, there's a very post-modern, all-narratives-are-valid notion that I think (circling back to the OP of this discussion) fuels the "fake news" thing more aggressively on the right than it does the left. The left encourages you to find your own truth about yourself; the right encourages you to generate your own truths about things external to you. When you believe a minority viewpoint, you're going to be challenged more often than the mainstream--and you can refine your viewpoint under fire and make it better (the inability to make it better because there was no better to be made was a large part of what pushed me away from conservatism), or you can adopt a siege mentality and hide from it. I find that cowardice endemic to the modern right and its fragility the centerpiece of the hatred of even mild challenges.
brighteyes 10y ago
> I think the problem is that you need to define what conservatism is to you. I'm not a conservative, so I don't think I should be the one to define what it means? Instead, I listen to people that self-identify as conservative.
- badlucklottery 10y ago