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Counterarguments: The older libraries (that caught on) are still perfectly fine to use. There's no reason you can't still be running an Express.js app with Bac

by allover 10y ago

Counterarguments: The older libraries (that caught on) are still perfectly fine to use. There's no reason you can't still be running an Express.js app with Backbone.js + RequireJS (for modules) in the front-end. We have a Backbone.js + RequireJS app at work and it's totally fine, well structured OOP, and arguably a great codebase in comparison to some Angular 1 architecture horror-stories I've heard about. Of course it takes strong, level-headed devs to say "no we're not rewriting it in Angular". In terms of jobs, being able to search for 'framework + jobs' is kind of insane anyway. 'language + jobs' makes more sense, a dev should be able to pickup any framework pretty quickly. Not everyone in the Ruby community was that happy that Rails become so defining, you could argue that it was an anomaly to have a language so dominated by 1 framework. That said I do prefer Rails/Django over any backend Node framework to-date, at least when it comes to the DB/ORMs/migrations story (which then lead to mature CMSs too), so I don't love that no Node backend framework grew comparable mindshare there.

tracker1 10y ago
I'd counter your last point and ask is an ORM really necessary... especially since most DBMS with Node modules have tagged template literals to parameterized queries. In general the responses from databases are usually very easy to use without the cruft and limitations regarding ORMS. As for migrations, I'm a little more old-school, I prefer versioned scripts/rollbacks that are hand-crafted for SQL, or for very large document/column databases on-read/save upgrades. Backbone works... though I was in the browserify camp over requirejs/amd, mainly because I wanted the same syntax/modules without umd overhead... moving towards Webpack was a sinch. Keeping what works is often a good idea, I wouldn't suggest even trying to rewrite everything in one pass for most things. To GP, almost everything revolves around Express server-side, there are other options, but that's still the bulk of the mindshare in my experience, even if I do like the way Koa works slightly better. For that matter, jQuery really rules the world still, even if the mindshare has declines, and likely wouldn't reach for it for new projects.
innocentoldguy 10y ago
Thank you for your commentary, allover. You do bring up a good point, I think. It does address a slightly different issue than I wanted to bring up though. Consider this: I can still use Delphi to make Windows apps too, but where am I going to find a job? Being able to use an old tool isn't my point. My point is that while you may still be using Express.js where you work, there are many other Javascript companies who aren't using it anymore. They've moved on. Even the Express.js developers have moved on to something else (Koa), so by mastering Express.js, you sort of paint yourself into a corner in your career. You most likely won't show up on recruiting radars, since you don't have the latest JS buzzwords on your résumé, and if you try to go get another Express.js job on your own, you'll have a more difficult time of it. The high turnover rate of JS frameworks works to your detriment, I would think, because it is more difficult to keep up with all the moving targets. If JS programmers don't see their framework-du-jour culture as a problem, then by all means, keep doing it. I just think you'd be better off, and attract more developers, if you congregated around the best framework or two out there, and worked to make them the best they can be, instead of re-inventing the wheel every other day. I'm simply bringing it up as a point to consider for making the JS community more stable and cohesive, and worthy of personal investment. I know this fly-by-night aspect of the Javascript community is one of the reasons I don't bother with server-side JS. I know a lot of other developers in my area who feel the same way. Just something to consider...
- allover 10y ago
  > JS programmers don't see their framework-du-jour culture ... > The high turnover rate of JS frameworks ... > this fly-by-night aspect of the Javascript community .. All those things are your interpretation. But please hesitate when generalising like that and stating your opinions as fact, and think about what is actually going on here. The JS community is larger than any other, and very good at promoting its stuff (great landing pages/demos/docs, lots of conferences, podcasts and bloggers). This can give the appearance we're switching tools all the time, but actually in the few jobs I've worked, that simply wasn't the case. And on Express.js specificially, that is not a great example of your point at all. Express is still the defacto winner by my understanding. I wouldn't pick Koa, because it's a niche thing to use a framework built around generators. The fact that original Express people went on to work on it is irrelevant (though I see it could be a confusing signal to the community). And again I want to reiterate on the jobs thing, that (in my opinion, granted) you are not painting yourself into a corner picking any one framework because recruiters shouldn't be looking for any specific framework, and if you find in your interactions with them that they are, then it's up to you to set them straight.

by allover 10y ago

tracker1 10y ago

I'd counter your last point and ask is an ORM really necessary... especially since most DBMS with Node modules have tagged template literals to parameterized queries. In general the responses from databases are usually very easy to use without the cruft and limitations regarding ORMS. As for migrations, I'm a little more old-school, I prefer versioned scripts/rollbacks that are hand-crafted for SQL, or for very large document/column databases on-read/save upgrades. Backbone works... though I was in the browserify camp over requirejs/amd, mainly because I wanted the same syntax/modules without umd overhead... moving towards Webpack was a sinch. Keeping what works is often a good idea, I wouldn't suggest even trying to rewrite everything in one pass for most things. To GP, almost everything revolves around Express server-side, there are other options, but that's still the bulk of the mindshare in my experience, even if I do like the way Koa works slightly better. For that matter, jQuery really rules the world still, even if the mindshare has declines, and likely wouldn't reach for it for new projects.

innocentoldguy 10y ago

Thank you for your commentary, allover. You do bring up a good point, I think. It does address a slightly different issue than I wanted to bring up though. Consider this: I can still use Delphi to make Windows apps too, but where am I going to find a job? Being able to use an old tool isn't my point. My point is that while you may still be using Express.js where you work, there are many other Javascript companies who aren't using it anymore. They've moved on. Even the Express.js developers have moved on to something else (Koa), so by mastering Express.js, you sort of paint yourself into a corner in your career. You most likely won't show up on recruiting radars, since you don't have the latest JS buzzwords on your résumé, and if you try to go get another Express.js job on your own, you'll have a more difficult time of it. The high turnover rate of JS frameworks works to your detriment, I would think, because it is more difficult to keep up with all the moving targets. If JS programmers don't see their framework-du-jour culture as a problem, then by all means, keep doing it. I just think you'd be better off, and attract more developers, if you congregated around the best framework or two out there, and worked to make them the best they can be, instead of re-inventing the wheel every other day. I'm simply bringing it up as a point to consider for making the JS community more stable and cohesive, and worthy of personal investment. I know this fly-by-night aspect of the Javascript community is one of the reasons I don't bother with server-side JS. I know a lot of other developers in my area who feel the same way. Just something to consider...

allover 10y ago
> JS programmers don't see their framework-du-jour culture ... > The high turnover rate of JS frameworks ... > this fly-by-night aspect of the Javascript community .. All those things are your interpretation. But please hesitate when generalising like that and stating your opinions as fact, and think about what is actually going on here. The JS community is larger than any other, and very good at promoting its stuff (great landing pages/demos/docs, lots of conferences, podcasts and bloggers). This can give the appearance we're switching tools all the time, but actually in the few jobs I've worked, that simply wasn't the case. And on Express.js specificially, that is not a great example of your point at all. Express is still the defacto winner by my understanding. I wouldn't pick Koa, because it's a niche thing to use a framework built around generators. The fact that original Express people went on to work on it is irrelevant (though I see it could be a confusing signal to the community). And again I want to reiterate on the jobs thing, that (in my opinion, granted) you are not painting yourself into a corner picking any one framework because recruiters shouldn't be looking for any specific framework, and if you find in your interactions with them that they are, then it's up to you to set them straight.