7 ms·

"Everything just works" so long as your expectations around "everything" are essentially set by a desktop computer experience designed in 2005. Linux on deskto

"Everything just works" so long as your expectations around "everything" are essentially set by a desktop computer experience designed in 2005. Linux on desktops is fine (except from a physical security standpoint), but primitive in terms of UX. And it's still dependent on Mozilla or Google for its browsing experience. And if you want a portable computer (which by the way are demonstrably more secure in the face of physical tampering) you basically relegate yourself to terrible battery life, poor display support, dicey sleep support, and the fixes for these often compromise performance. I really wish Linux users would stop softballing their desktop vendors and kernel maintainers so much. It's just not competitive!

Aldo_MX 10y ago
"Everything just works" should be interpreted as an asynchronous piece of code, because there are no guarantees that everything will work "today".
- Godel_unicode 10y ago
  Desktop Linux is eventually consistent?
  - Aldo_MX 10y ago
    Depends on your drivers, I mean, the last wart I had to struggle with was some flickering with Electron apps, but reverting to an older model of hardware acceleration did the trick: http://askubuntu.com/questions/752743/ubuntu-16-04-skylake-6th-generation-screen-flickering http://askubuntu.com/questions/752743/ubuntu-16-04-skylake-6...
mnadkvlb 10y ago
I agree with you, that the experience a lot of times not as efficient and that its not for laptops. I had some weird problems on 2015 Macbook pro (max config.) where the linux is not able to shutdown the system, and the whole experience requires a lot of experimenting. Apart from the above points that you mentioned its definitely not getting you the out-fo-box working functionality that windows gives. But i think i am willing to suffer that much to have a system with more control and an OS which doesn't installs random apps without my permission like Windows 10 does[1]. [1] http://winaero.com/blog/fix-windows-10-installs-apps-like-candy-crush-soda-saga-automatically/ http://winaero.com/blog/fix-windows-10-installs-apps-like-ca...
- btschaegg 10y ago
  Here's an interesting twist on the "out of the box experience": It doesn't just come down to drivers and configs. Yes, Windows might be better situated in that regard (although it also has its problems, try installing it on a PCI SSD the setup doesn't have a driver for...). But: The time I use up in Linux to configure various things like that I easily waste on Windows while downloading/installing all the tools/graphics drivers I need by hand. The fact here is that Windows' tooling - if not entirely absent - is horrible. And although there are always alternatives that are easy to come by (sysinternals tools, 3rd party tools like Voidtools' Everything, Putty, DisplayFusion, Notepad++, a decent browser, etc.), the fact that their functionality is still not integrated (or there is at least a simple way to bulk-install them) still boggles my mind. So, railing on about "out of the box" performance from a windows perspective seems a bit off to me. Windows as a blank slate is horrible.
- wruza 10y ago
  >definitely not getting you the out-fo-box working functionality that windows gives Oh come on, windows distro doesn't even have coreutils in it.
CaptSpify 10y ago
Although I agree that the "out of the box" experience is still not great on linux, I would ague that it's much more competitive. Most things do work out of the box. And at the end of the day, I have full control of my machine, and the software is being pushed by a group of people who don't see me as "the product". I can't say that about Windows or Mac.
- tracker1 10y ago
  I'd say the out of the box experience of a full install of Ubuntu vs. Windows for a given set of hardware is definitely better. With windows, you often have to seek out the correct graphics driver, and sometimes network driver (though that's about it for the most part). That said, keeping said system running, when an update causes a regression for your system seems to happen to me far more on my Ubuntu system than my windows or osx ones.
cfallin 10y ago
Yup, bleeding-edge laptop support is still a toss-up, but it's getting better, IMHO! I think that's where this sentiment often comes from: people who cut their teeth on XF86Config tweaking and compiling NVidia kernel modules from source and shopping for just the right PCMCIA wireless adapter are now amazed when a fresh Ubuntu install has working 3D-accelerated graphics, 802.11n (with GUI for configuration), Bluetooth, etc. (And yes, we have Freedesktop.org/systemd/NetworkManager and friends to thank for a lot of this.) Maybe the bar was just really low, and you've got a strong argument if you say it shouldn't be anymore, but we are making progress...
- hysan 10y ago
  > Maybe the bar was just really low, and you've got a strong argument if you say it shouldn't be anymore, but we are making progress... I was one of those people for longer than I can remember. Last year I decided that it was time for me to make this argument. I don't regret the time I spent learning, tinkering, and sometimes wrestling Linux into working. However, while Linux has made a ton of progress, the gap between what "just works" and what users expect has only grown. My time and needs are just too valuable to me now to be messing around with Linux.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    Apple has really pushed the bar up in terms of what users expect from their computers out of the box, and that has affected Windows as well, so in some sense Linux has been swimming upstream? treading water? In the mid-90s I remember endlessly fiddling with CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT to squeeze out that extra 30kb of conventional memory to run some game. Buying peripherals was such a crap shoot that 'Plug and Play' was something that needed to be advertised, and much of the time you were still stuck manually juggling IRQs, moving cards to different slots, etc. Nowadays, one can buy any Windows or Mac computer/peripheral and generally expect it to work, with some bare minimum of reading reviews. So while Linux has made tremendous strides in terms of driver support (you mean my wifi actually works now?), things are still very far from zero conf that users have become accustomed to. Time is valuable, and 2-10 hours spent experimenting with various driver packages, editing text config files, recompiling the kernel, etc. is literally money out of the user's pocket, not to mention the learning curve if you don't already know how to do all these things. That doesn't include the time for extra research to see what hardware is well supported. Here's an example of install instructions on a pretty well-supported laptop that does Linux [1]. I'd guesstimate an hour of time if you've already done this before, and anything up to 10 hours if you run into unexpected difficulties or are totally new to this. [1] http://chaos-reins.com/2016-11-14-arch-yoga-910/ http://chaos-reins.com/2016-11-14-arch-yoga-910/
mediumdave 10y ago
> And if you want a portable computer (which by the way are demonstrably more secure in the face of physical tampering) you basically relegate yourself to terrible battery life, poor display support, dicey sleep support, and the fixes for these often compromise performance. This depends a lot on how well supported your hardware is. I run Linux Mint (MATE) on a Thinkpad T430 and have had 0 issues with displays, sleep, battery life, you name it.
- KirinDave 10y ago
  Have you plugged in an external monitor and not had an issue? I think that's not the norm even for that setup.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    What do you mean by issue? After a couple of xrandr invocations to configure them, which could be automated by some GUI app if I were so inclined, I've never seen external monitors have issues on either of my Linux laptops.
    - PeterisP 10y ago
      Requiring an xrandr invocation equals to having issues. Perhaps it's a small problem, perhaps it's a very easy problem, but it definitely is a problem. Not having issues means that you arrive at the hardware (which you may have never seen, e.g. at a customer's site), plug the wires, and it works immediately. More importantly, not having issues means that you can rely on being able to just plug the wires and have it work, and that you don't have a risk of being unable to make it work immediately even if you forget the right invocations and are offline and can't look them up.
      - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
        > plug the wires, and it works immediately How does it work immediately? How does it know of I want to clone or extend the display? If I extend, do I want the same resolution on both screens, or different? You'll have to set that somehow, and whether it's a GUI or a CLI tool doesn't matter. Forgetting the invocations aren't really an issue anymore either, my shell (zsh) has autocompletion of xrandr outputs, modes and resolutions.
vacri 10y ago
That's a nice set of rose-coloured glasses you have there. Hey, here's something I can do on my linux desktop that I can't do on my win10 desktop: change the way it looks! Yeah, I know, primitive UX, right!? And you're right, linux does sometimes require fiddling during installation to install drivers to make hardware work... because as we all know, windows requires no drivers at installation time! All hardware 'just works' without drivers on windows, right? And you never have to be on your toes lest your driver installer sideload some shovelware you didn't want - what a 'modern' UX experience! Yes, please, my mouse driver needs to have it's own service visible in the dock that also phones home separate to all the other items I install. How very modern! Every desktop env has something that sucks about it, and windows has plenty (remember the clusterfuck that was 'removing the Start button'?). Similarly, if you don't like traditional desktops then there's plenty of alternatives in ^nix-land, like tiling window managers.
corndoge 10y ago
It's not primitive in terms of UX. You just need to spend more time configuring it. Some will argue that that means it's primitive, but I don't think so. The point about portable computers is also false. You just need to pick a machine with hardware manufactured by friendly vendors who help write drivers. Why would you want to support anyone else? Battery life? My x230 with tpm installed gets 6 hours of battery life on the stock battery. Display support? I'm using a 2560x1440 monitor with the mini displayport on my x230 right now and have had no issues with it whatsoever. Plays Quake 3 great too, no tearing. Debian Jessie. Sleep support? /etc/systemd/logind.conf HandleLidSwitch=suspend Performance issues? My system idles at 200mb. Good luck getting macOS or Windows to do that. And to preempt the bias card, I use a Mac for work and love it to death. I think most of your points were applicable in 2005. The terrain has changed and the mainstream Linux distributions are now very stable and usable daily driver systems. Linux is more than competitive, it's just not targeted at inexperienced users. Which is fine. Not everyone has the need or want to configure their computer to suit them. Some people just need a computer that works. That's why macOS and Windows exist.
- irq 10y ago
  6 hours battery life is bare minimum these days. I wouldn't brag about it the way you are. 2560x1400 external monitor? Doesn't sound like a HiDPI display unless it's only 15". This is another bare minimum thing I wouldn't brag about. "good sleep support" has very little to do with activating sleep by shutting the lid. Grandposter is referring to Linux's terrible reputation for successfully going to sleep and waking up without crashing. You fail to convince again. Quake 3 is an 18 year old game. How is it's performance in 2017 anything to write home about? RAM is plentiful, the fact your idle system fits in 200mb is thus unimpressive too. You, sir, yourself, sound like you have 2005 standard. (Or perhaps 1999 standards? That's when Quake 3 came out.)
  - serf 10y ago
    >6 hours battery life is bare minimum these days. sad to think that 'MacBook Pro' is the bare minimum now.[0] >RAM is plentiful, the fact your idle system fits in 200mb is thus unimpressive too. not true. It is impressive that a modern machine can be ran and coordinated on such a small footprint. Ram isn't eaten up with a zero cost. In other words : memory usage indicates more than just what's available, it's a performance metric. [0]: http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/14/13616404/apple-macbook-pro-touch-bar-review-2016-13-inch-15-inch-laptop http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/14/13616404/apple-macbook-pr...
darklajid 10y ago
"And it's still dependent on Mozilla or Google for its browsing experience." Is that your way of saying that you cannot run proprietary stuff like IE or Safari and that .. is a bad thing? I don't know a single person using Edge/IE anywhere around me, so I have trouble parsing and understanding this statement.
- KirinDave 10y ago
  Even compiling a chromium shell includes some telemetry! Every browser collects some telemetry and websites do more. There is no networked computing experience that does not allow vendors to extract metadata.
minitech 10y ago
Primitive in terms of UX where?
mouldysammich 10y ago
i get 10 hours of battery life on my xps, and i get 8 on my libreboot x200. Battery on linux if perfectly fine.
swah 10y ago
"But even updates work!" Same people who love tiling window managers... you're the 1%!
mreiland 10y ago
I look at current KDE and compare it to Win10 and I have no idea what you mean by primitive. And this is comign from a rabid i3 user.

Aldo_MX 10y ago

"Everything just works" should be interpreted as an asynchronous piece of code, because there are no guarantees that everything will work "today".

Godel_unicode 10y ago
Desktop Linux is eventually consistent?
- Aldo_MX 10y ago
  Depends on your drivers, I mean, the last wart I had to struggle with was some flickering with Electron apps, but reverting to an older model of hardware acceleration did the trick: http://askubuntu.com/questions/752743/ubuntu-16-04-skylake-6th-generation-screen-flickering http://askubuntu.com/questions/752743/ubuntu-16-04-skylake-6...

mnadkvlb 10y ago

I agree with you, that the experience a lot of times not as efficient and that its not for laptops. I had some weird problems on 2015 Macbook pro (max config.) where the linux is not able to shutdown the system, and the whole experience requires a lot of experimenting. Apart from the above points that you mentioned its definitely not getting you the out-fo-box working functionality that windows gives. But i think i am willing to suffer that much to have a system with more control and an OS which doesn't installs random apps without my permission like Windows 10 does[1]. [1] http://winaero.com/blog/fix-windows-10-installs-apps-like-candy-crush-soda-saga-automatically/ http://winaero.com/blog/fix-windows-10-installs-apps-like-ca...

btschaegg 10y ago
Here's an interesting twist on the "out of the box experience": It doesn't just come down to drivers and configs. Yes, Windows might be better situated in that regard (although it also has its problems, try installing it on a PCI SSD the setup doesn't have a driver for...). But: The time I use up in Linux to configure various things like that I easily waste on Windows while downloading/installing all the tools/graphics drivers I need by hand. The fact here is that Windows' tooling - if not entirely absent - is horrible. And although there are always alternatives that are easy to come by (sysinternals tools, 3rd party tools like Voidtools' Everything, Putty, DisplayFusion, Notepad++, a decent browser, etc.), the fact that their functionality is still not integrated (or there is at least a simple way to bulk-install them) still boggles my mind. So, railing on about "out of the box" performance from a windows perspective seems a bit off to me. Windows as a blank slate is horrible.
wruza 10y ago
>definitely not getting you the out-fo-box working functionality that windows gives Oh come on, windows distro doesn't even have coreutils in it.

CaptSpify 10y ago

Although I agree that the "out of the box" experience is still not great on linux, I would ague that it's much more competitive. Most things do work out of the box. And at the end of the day, I have full control of my machine, and the software is being pushed by a group of people who don't see me as "the product". I can't say that about Windows or Mac.

tracker1 10y ago
I'd say the out of the box experience of a full install of Ubuntu vs. Windows for a given set of hardware is definitely better. With windows, you often have to seek out the correct graphics driver, and sometimes network driver (though that's about it for the most part). That said, keeping said system running, when an update causes a regression for your system seems to happen to me far more on my Ubuntu system than my windows or osx ones.

cfallin 10y ago

Yup, bleeding-edge laptop support is still a toss-up, but it's getting better, IMHO! I think that's where this sentiment often comes from: people who cut their teeth on XF86Config tweaking and compiling NVidia kernel modules from source and shopping for just the right PCMCIA wireless adapter are now amazed when a fresh Ubuntu install has working 3D-accelerated graphics, 802.11n (with GUI for configuration), Bluetooth, etc. (And yes, we have Freedesktop.org/systemd/NetworkManager and friends to thank for a lot of this.) Maybe the bar was just really low, and you've got a strong argument if you say it shouldn't be anymore, but we are making progress...

hysan 10y ago
> Maybe the bar was just really low, and you've got a strong argument if you say it shouldn't be anymore, but we are making progress... I was one of those people for longer than I can remember. Last year I decided that it was time for me to make this argument. I don't regret the time I spent learning, tinkering, and sometimes wrestling Linux into working. However, while Linux has made a ton of progress, the gap between what "just works" and what users expect has only grown. My time and needs are just too valuable to me now to be messing around with Linux.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  Apple has really pushed the bar up in terms of what users expect from their computers out of the box, and that has affected Windows as well, so in some sense Linux has been swimming upstream? treading water? In the mid-90s I remember endlessly fiddling with CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT to squeeze out that extra 30kb of conventional memory to run some game. Buying peripherals was such a crap shoot that 'Plug and Play' was something that needed to be advertised, and much of the time you were still stuck manually juggling IRQs, moving cards to different slots, etc. Nowadays, one can buy any Windows or Mac computer/peripheral and generally expect it to work, with some bare minimum of reading reviews. So while Linux has made tremendous strides in terms of driver support (you mean my wifi actually works now?), things are still very far from zero conf that users have become accustomed to. Time is valuable, and 2-10 hours spent experimenting with various driver packages, editing text config files, recompiling the kernel, etc. is literally money out of the user's pocket, not to mention the learning curve if you don't already know how to do all these things. That doesn't include the time for extra research to see what hardware is well supported. Here's an example of install instructions on a pretty well-supported laptop that does Linux [1]. I'd guesstimate an hour of time if you've already done this before, and anything up to 10 hours if you run into unexpected difficulties or are totally new to this. [1] http://chaos-reins.com/2016-11-14-arch-yoga-910/ http://chaos-reins.com/2016-11-14-arch-yoga-910/

mediumdave 10y ago

> And if you want a portable computer (which by the way are demonstrably more secure in the face of physical tampering) you basically relegate yourself to terrible battery life, poor display support, dicey sleep support, and the fixes for these often compromise performance. This depends a lot on how well supported your hardware is. I run Linux Mint (MATE) on a Thinkpad T430 and have had 0 issues with displays, sleep, battery life, you name it.

KirinDave 10y ago
Have you plugged in an external monitor and not had an issue? I think that's not the norm even for that setup.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  What do you mean by issue? After a couple of xrandr invocations to configure them, which could be automated by some GUI app if I were so inclined, I've never seen external monitors have issues on either of my Linux laptops.
  - PeterisP 10y ago
    Requiring an xrandr invocation equals to having issues. Perhaps it's a small problem, perhaps it's a very easy problem, but it definitely is a problem. Not having issues means that you arrive at the hardware (which you may have never seen, e.g. at a customer's site), plug the wires, and it works immediately. More importantly, not having issues means that you can rely on being able to just plug the wires and have it work, and that you don't have a risk of being unable to make it work immediately even if you forget the right invocations and are offline and can't look them up.
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      > plug the wires, and it works immediately How does it work immediately? How does it know of I want to clone or extend the display? If I extend, do I want the same resolution on both screens, or different? You'll have to set that somehow, and whether it's a GUI or a CLI tool doesn't matter. Forgetting the invocations aren't really an issue anymore either, my shell (zsh) has autocompletion of xrandr outputs, modes and resolutions.

vacri 10y ago

That's a nice set of rose-coloured glasses you have there. Hey, here's something I can do on my linux desktop that I can't do on my win10 desktop: change the way it looks! Yeah, I know, primitive UX, right!? And you're right, linux does sometimes require fiddling during installation to install drivers to make hardware work... because as we all know, windows requires no drivers at installation time! All hardware 'just works' without drivers on windows, right? And you never have to be on your toes lest your driver installer sideload some shovelware you didn't want - what a 'modern' UX experience! Yes, please, my mouse driver needs to have it's own service visible in the dock that also phones home separate to all the other items I install. How very modern! Every desktop env has something that sucks about it, and windows has plenty (remember the clusterfuck that was 'removing the Start button'?). Similarly, if you don't like traditional desktops then there's plenty of alternatives in ^nix-land, like tiling window managers.

corndoge 10y ago

It's not primitive in terms of UX. You just need to spend more time configuring it. Some will argue that that means it's primitive, but I don't think so. The point about portable computers is also false. You just need to pick a machine with hardware manufactured by friendly vendors who help write drivers. Why would you want to support anyone else? Battery life? My x230 with tpm installed gets 6 hours of battery life on the stock battery. Display support? I'm using a 2560x1440 monitor with the mini displayport on my x230 right now and have had no issues with it whatsoever. Plays Quake 3 great too, no tearing. Debian Jessie. Sleep support? /etc/systemd/logind.conf HandleLidSwitch=suspend Performance issues? My system idles at 200mb. Good luck getting macOS or Windows to do that. And to preempt the bias card, I use a Mac for work and love it to death. I think most of your points were applicable in 2005. The terrain has changed and the mainstream Linux distributions are now very stable and usable daily driver systems. Linux is more than competitive, it's just not targeted at inexperienced users. Which is fine. Not everyone has the need or want to configure their computer to suit them. Some people just need a computer that works. That's why macOS and Windows exist.

irq 10y ago
6 hours battery life is bare minimum these days. I wouldn't brag about it the way you are. 2560x1400 external monitor? Doesn't sound like a HiDPI display unless it's only 15". This is another bare minimum thing I wouldn't brag about. "good sleep support" has very little to do with activating sleep by shutting the lid. Grandposter is referring to Linux's terrible reputation for successfully going to sleep and waking up without crashing. You fail to convince again. Quake 3 is an 18 year old game. How is it's performance in 2017 anything to write home about? RAM is plentiful, the fact your idle system fits in 200mb is thus unimpressive too. You, sir, yourself, sound like you have 2005 standard. (Or perhaps 1999 standards? That's when Quake 3 came out.)
- serf 10y ago
  >6 hours battery life is bare minimum these days. sad to think that 'MacBook Pro' is the bare minimum now.[0] >RAM is plentiful, the fact your idle system fits in 200mb is thus unimpressive too. not true. It is impressive that a modern machine can be ran and coordinated on such a small footprint. Ram isn't eaten up with a zero cost. In other words : memory usage indicates more than just what's available, it's a performance metric. [0]: http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/14/13616404/apple-macbook-pro-touch-bar-review-2016-13-inch-15-inch-laptop http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/14/13616404/apple-macbook-pr...

darklajid 10y ago

"And it's still dependent on Mozilla or Google for its browsing experience." Is that your way of saying that you cannot run proprietary stuff like IE or Safari and that .. is a bad thing? I don't know a single person using Edge/IE anywhere around me, so I have trouble parsing and understanding this statement.

KirinDave 10y ago
Even compiling a chromium shell includes some telemetry! Every browser collects some telemetry and websites do more. There is no networked computing experience that does not allow vendors to extract metadata.

minitech 10y ago

Primitive in terms of UX where?

mouldysammich 10y ago

i get 10 hours of battery life on my xps, and i get 8 on my libreboot x200. Battery on linux if perfectly fine.

swah 10y ago

"But even updates work!" Same people who love tiling window managers... you're the 1%!

mreiland 10y ago

I look at current KDE and compare it to Win10 and I have no idea what you mean by primitive. And this is comign from a rabid i3 user.