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Russian here too. I used to hold similar position on evil west vs. free and for people Russia.... Before I immigrated to the West. I got access to a whole lot

by hn_123 10y ago

Russian here too. I used to hold similar position on evil west vs. free and for people Russia.... Before I immigrated to the West. I got access to a whole lot more information, I got to live outside of that mentality for a long period of time now. I saw the 90's first hand. My family struggled through it. I was in one of the top schools (a la Russian MIT), making 20$/month.. Barely enough to cover metro cost and not enough for food 3x per day. At the same time as my family was struggling, the president and his oligofriends were stealing and robbing the country. As poor as I was, being at one of the top school allowed me to have friends ... Who had friends - kids of the elite. You see, they tend to send their family abroad, kids go to private British schools. They often have dual citizenships, own real estate and investments in the "evil west". It's a two faced reality, with one face they are critics, with another - they pose for foreign citizenship application. To your comment on the power grab by the "west" and the international elites - yes, it is real IMO. But be careful - watch who is using who to gain that control. The government over there and the judicial systems are not to be trusted. The information grab here is obvious - why give up info on Russian citizens for free to linked in , Google etc.? Of course Russian GRU/FSB etc want to have their hands in it too.

Mikeb85 10y ago
> I saw the 90's first hand. The 90's were courtesy of the west, who sent 'advisers' to Russia to help with the transition to capitalism. Most of the issues the west has with Russia today have to do with the fact we wanted them to stay in the 90's... That was the ideal as far as our leaders are concerned. > I got access to a whole lot more information No, you just got access to a different kind of propaganda. You think families don't struggle here, while the elite take in bribes, engage in cronyism, and send their kids to elite schools? The Clinton's weren't worth hundreds of millions before Bill took office, where did they acquire their wealth? All our corporate 'elite' control our governments, they bribe them (sorry, 'lobby'), and get favourable business deals. The only thing the west has going for it is that people are distracted enough by our relative wealth (enough to buy iPads and shit) to be complacent to all these issues...
- mlvljr 10y ago
  Supportive, cheers from Russia
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- nooron 10y ago
  The 90s really weren't courtesy of the West. I understand this line of thinking, and I don't want to suggest that the West's handling of Russia in the collapse of the Soviet union was ideal. I know that it wasn't. But the idea that west successfully privatized Russia in the malignant way you describe would require the existence of institutions powerful enough to enact such a change in the collapsing Soviet union. This has no basis in fact. The West did not have this kind of influence, in large measure because the West did not have viable agents or institutions to mediate such power. The truth is that the kind of plunder that occurred was a natural consequence of the Soviet economic order, as well as the lack of institutions (and norms) required to sustain a functioning market. If you are genuinely interested in this topic, please do reach out to me via email – it's in my profile. I'd be really happy to talk more about this topic, and even send you a book or two on it!
  - Mikeb85 10y ago
    Some books have been written on the subject by a great many figures, and while my comment may be slightly hyperbolic, it's not entirely wrong. http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cohen-crusade.html http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cohen-crusade.html While I don't think the west necessarily intended for the Russian economy to collapse, they definitely tried to impose certain policies on Russia in an attempt to remake it into an American-style capitalist state, 'shock therapy' and the 'Washington consensus' were real things that were prescribed, and of course there was also military action taken to weaken Russia's influence as well (NATO expansion). Anyhow, there were a number of American economic advisers who worked for the Russian government during the 1990's, and to say they had no influence is plain wrong.
    - nooron 10y ago

by hn_123 10y ago

Mikeb85 10y ago

> I saw the 90's first hand. The 90's were courtesy of the west, who sent 'advisers' to Russia to help with the transition to capitalism. Most of the issues the west has with Russia today have to do with the fact we wanted them to stay in the 90's... That was the ideal as far as our leaders are concerned. > I got access to a whole lot more information No, you just got access to a different kind of propaganda. You think families don't struggle here, while the elite take in bribes, engage in cronyism, and send their kids to elite schools? The Clinton's weren't worth hundreds of millions before Bill took office, where did they acquire their wealth? All our corporate 'elite' control our governments, they bribe them (sorry, 'lobby'), and get favourable business deals. The only thing the west has going for it is that people are distracted enough by our relative wealth (enough to buy iPads and shit) to be complacent to all these issues...

mlvljr 10y ago
Supportive, cheers from Russia
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
nooron 10y ago
The 90s really weren't courtesy of the West. I understand this line of thinking, and I don't want to suggest that the West's handling of Russia in the collapse of the Soviet union was ideal. I know that it wasn't. But the idea that west successfully privatized Russia in the malignant way you describe would require the existence of institutions powerful enough to enact such a change in the collapsing Soviet union. This has no basis in fact. The West did not have this kind of influence, in large measure because the West did not have viable agents or institutions to mediate such power. The truth is that the kind of plunder that occurred was a natural consequence of the Soviet economic order, as well as the lack of institutions (and norms) required to sustain a functioning market. If you are genuinely interested in this topic, please do reach out to me via email – it's in my profile. I'd be really happy to talk more about this topic, and even send you a book or two on it!
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  Some books have been written on the subject by a great many figures, and while my comment may be slightly hyperbolic, it's not entirely wrong. http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cohen-crusade.html http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cohen-crusade.html While I don't think the west necessarily intended for the Russian economy to collapse, they definitely tried to impose certain policies on Russia in an attempt to remake it into an American-style capitalist state, 'shock therapy' and the 'Washington consensus' were real things that were prescribed, and of course there was also military action taken to weaken Russia's influence as well (NATO expansion). Anyhow, there were a number of American economic advisers who worked for the Russian government during the 1990's, and to say they had no influence is plain wrong.
  - nooron 10y ago