6 ms·

LG signals plan to put Wi-Fi in every appliance it releases in 2017

52 points by pareidolia 10y ago

manojlds 10y ago
Is that a valid headline, more from an English usage point of view. LG didn't threaten to do anything really. It is just that it can have bad unintended consequences.
- culturestate 10y ago
  It's totally valid and was obviously written with tongue firmly in cheek - the author (or their editor) is just having a little fun and suggesting that adding wifi to e.g. a stove is a consumer-hostile move.
  - omeid2 10y ago
    Consumers have the luxury of voting with their money.
    - matthewmacleod 10y ago
      Only while there are comparable manufacturers offering devices with a feature set they do want.
      - omeid2 10y ago
        I strongly doubt if the average western consumer has any problem of choice. On that topic, Barry Schwartz has a very interesting TED talk, aptly titled: The Paradox Of Choice. [1] PS. See the toothbrush phone example? Yeah, that is now a thing. [2] [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_c... [2] https://twitter.com/internetofshit/status/817531891494457345 https://twitter.com/internetofshit/status/817531891494457345
        tonyedgecombe 10y ago
        Try and buy a small television that doesn't suck, I tried and couldn't find anything.
        matthewmacleod 10y ago
        I think that's difficult to conclude. A good example might be the implementation of 'smart' features on televisions. I'd love to buy a no-nonsense television that I could simply plug in to an HDMI cable and have display whatever I throw at it. I have a cable box, AV receiver etc. that provide the necessary source content. But it still takes up to a minute for my TV to boot; it displays adverts; it needs software updates; it contains a microphone. That's a bunch of sully features I'd rather not have, but I can't exactly vote with my money here! (It's technically possible to do that, but I'd have to pay a massive, huge premium for a mediocre product. I don't think that situation counts.)
    - ensiferum 10y ago
      Already it's getting difficult to find dummy versions of consumer appliances such as televisions. They all have Craproid or CrapOS now and all the bugs and problems, security breaches and vulnerabilities that come with it. A fridge has a 10-20 year expected life span as it is. Anyone think that any manufacturer is seriously commited to maintaining software for that duration of time? In fact I'm going to speculate that having the software become unmaintained would be used as a marketing incentive to have people renew their fridges every couple of years.
      - omeid2 10y ago
        No, currently they seem to be really bad at this, judging from cases like "Can't sign in to Google calendar on my Samsung refrigerator"[1]. But, isn't this exactly how big names get replaced by more modern and technologically savvy alternatives? or at least, the big names gets forced to adopt? [1]. https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/calendar/UhfpcwO0X0c https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/calendar/Uhfp...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
bostand 10y ago
I sure hope they also plan to provide security updates for the lifetime of these fridges (10-20 years?) and make them update without any need for user interaction.
- d33 10y ago
  It's more likely they limit the lifetime. ...or maybe they'll trigger a new era of IoT custom firmwares?
- Inconel 10y ago
  Or they could just make sure the appliances don't actually last 10-20 years. Update problem solved, just buy a new fridge.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  TBH since the IOT part is removable you might just buy a new panel every 10 or so years. After 20 years it's unlikely that you'll be able to connect it to anything anyhow, most Wifi 802.11a cards do not work anymore with modern routers. You can't connect a 20 year old cellphone to modern networks, and even 15 year old DSL modems can very well not work anymore in many countries, same goes for cable modems if you have a DOCSIS 1.1 modem you likely not going to be able to hook it up to a modern cable network since most of them run DOCSIS 2.0 or higher. So security updates should be mandated for the 7-10 years or so warranty period for large appliances, ideally you'll want more than that sure, but I don't think that connectivity would be common at that point.
  - vic-traill 10y ago
    Your comment got me interested in what warranties are about for modern appliances (I'm cheap, I buy my appliances used). This link [0] asserts that LG warranties are diminished beyond one year, although some models continue parts-only coverage up to seven years, with a ten year parts warranty on the compressor of a particular style (so-called French Door models). The warranties are non-transferable from original owner. This [1] bottom-freezer French Door model's manual states the warrant is as described above (warranty summary table on page 55 of English manual). So we'd want to be careful about updates being supported for the warranty period - perhaps the longest term stated in the warranty, and updates required regardless of owner? [0] https://www.reference.com/home-garden/lg-s-warranty-policy-its-refrigerators-d9d16ea639defe57 https://www.reference.com/home-garden/lg-s-warranty-policy-i... [1] http://www.lg.com/us/support-product/lg-LFX31925ST http://www.lg.com/us/support-product/lg-LFX31925ST [edit: got rid of referral link on second ref]
wonko1 10y ago
Looking through their site the cheapest home applicances that LG sells are microwaves. They cost on the order of 100USD for the cheapest models. The cheapest Wifi "IoT" microcontrollers are on the order of 1USD. Seems like it might be a reasonable business move, even if it's just a box ticking exercise. I'll be surprised if they do put them in their lowest end products though. Perhaps those product lines are stable and won't be updated in 2017?
- d33 10y ago
  It's not just about a microcontroller, it's also about developing the software and them supporting and maintaining it.
  - wonko1 10y ago
    I guess I was looking for a lower bound. I'll be surprised if they can manage to implement this on their cheapest products.
  - catdog 10y ago
    You forget, we talk about IoT. > developing the software Oh quickly throw some shit together, not that much of a problem. > supporting and maintaining it. Haha good joke.
chris_wot 10y ago
I'm signalling plans to stop purchasing anything from LG in 2017. This is going to be a security nightmare.
- dingaling 10y ago
  It gives me the impetus to set up another SSID that just loops-back every packet to its sender. I was going to suggest not even associating them with an AP, but knowing how vendors code their software they'll probably overcome that 'problem' by having them search for and attach to the first open AP they find. So I might as well make that one be MyNullRoute.
  - gruez 10y ago
    What's the advantage of this instead of not connecting to any wifi networks?
    - jungletek 10y ago
      Software that doesn't respect user settings. In this case, the fear is that wifi-capable devices may just associate with a random unsecured access point, on purpose but 'covertly', to send and/or receive unknown data, at the behest of the manufacturer.
petre 10y ago
The DDoS attacks of the future will to be caused by refrigerator, washing machines, TVs etc. along with surveilance cameras and routers. And the 2.4 GHz commercial band radio spectrum is going to get so crowded that legitimate WiFi shall be rendered useless.
- Freak_NL 10y ago
  This is probably the nastiest part of the whole Internet of Things hype. There is so much stuff that now comes with internet connected functionality that securing it all is simply not manageable. Sure, a household may demand that their smart thermostat keeps working reliably and securely, but how about the smart TV that's connected to WiFi, but is only used as a (classic) dumb screen? Or the talking doll the kids got for Christmas that talks back? (Yes, this is a thing!) Or the baby monitor? Or any other plug-and-play webcam? All of these devices are by design capable of performing HTTP requests, and can be exploited to perform DDOS attacks. There is no economic incentive to keep these devices secure once the warranty runs out, yet hackers do have a lot of interest in hacking whole classes of devices.
- catdog 10y ago
  It's not only the future, it's already happening. The Mirai botnet, mostly running on IoT devices, was used to perform massive DDoS attacks in 2016. This gives us a foretaste of what is to come when we can assume at least one vulnerable IoT device in more or less every household.
stuaxo 10y ago
A fridge with a glass door would be better. Or if you want a techie solution, glass that can be toggled between fogged or not.
- regularfry 10y ago
  This is such an obvious (and obviously good) idea, there must be a reason it's not done. Is it because it's difficult to get glass with the right thermal insulation properties?
  - jschwartzi 10y ago
    If you go to any convenience store, you'll see this exact solution keeping drinks cold. The problem is that the refrigeration unit has to be running all the time or heat will enter through the glass.
    - Ericson2314 10y ago
      Heat via radiation? So would blinds not work?
  - username223 10y ago
    Double- and triple-pane windows are a thing, so I doubt durability or cost is a problem. Are triple-pane windows that much worse than refrigerator doors?
  - Something1234 10y ago
    No Door Storage? That could be a very good reason not for see through doors. Replacing them with glass makes it very difficult to see what is on the interior vs what is on the door.
baybal2 10y ago
I imagine my fridge showing me ads. 10 years ago, an idea that online ads will be put into offline software seemed ridiculous, but now that admob cr@p is being put into every piece of 'begware'
justinsaccount 10y ago
That's fine.. What's more of a problem is that the device will not have an open platform or even an open bootloader and be unsupported and obsolete in a few years.
codingdave 10y ago
> Alexa isn't an inherently bad fit for a refrigerator I think people are forgetting the purpose of a fridge. People already store food that doesn't need to be kept cool. They already throw out food based on dates stamped on packaging, not condition of the food. And they keep spoiled food in the back, forgotten. The fridge is a terribly mis-used kitchen device. So unless Alexa somehow develops a way to interact biologically with the contents, I do not see it as a good functional fit for that device.
- dictum 10y ago
  > So unless Alexa somehow develops a way to interact biologically with the contents This pipe dream overlaps with something I've wanted since I became a reluctant bodybuilder: an appliance to measure the macronutrients of a meal, or at least a viable, reasonably priced calorimeter.
e40 10y ago
If you don't want your LG device to connect to anything, then don't feed it your SSID and password. (I don't have any unsecured networks in range of my house, so there's no way LG devices could connect without me doing something.) I have a Samsung TV. I never hooked it up to my wifi, so it's a dumb device.
dictum 10y ago
I look forward to the "we couldn't foresee the security risks, we cannot be held responsible" non-apology in 2022.
redorb 10y ago
These type of try-hard (every appliance) efforts are crazy... The market hasn't demanded every appliance based on the sales of connected devices currently. I'd guess if they did do every appliance they quickly reverse and offer non connected devices very soon after.
Animats 10y ago
As the article points out, their "smart fridge" costs more than a regular fridge plus all the electronics involved. This has been an ongoing problem with LG since they put a tablet in a refrigerator door and raised the price by about $1000.
Lio 10y ago
Back in 2013 some LG TVs were caught scanning users' networks and connected drives.[1] At the time I think LG said that this was a mistake. Even taking that in good faith I would still be wary of connecting any LG consumer appliance to my own home network. [1] http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11/lg-smart-tv-snooping-extends-to-home-networks-second-blogger-says/ http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11/lg-smart-tv-snooping...

52 points by pareidolia 10y ago

Is that a valid headline, more from an English usage point of view. LG didn't threaten to do anything really. It is just that it can have bad unintended consequences.

culturestate 10y ago
It's totally valid and was obviously written with tongue firmly in cheek - the author (or their editor) is just having a little fun and suggesting that adding wifi to e.g. a stove is a consumer-hostile move.
- omeid2 10y ago
  Consumers have the luxury of voting with their money.
  - matthewmacleod 10y ago
    Only while there are comparable manufacturers offering devices with a feature set they do want.
    - omeid2 10y ago
      I strongly doubt if the average western consumer has any problem of choice. On that topic, Barry Schwartz has a very interesting TED talk, aptly titled: The Paradox Of Choice. [1] PS. See the toothbrush phone example? Yeah, that is now a thing. [2] [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_c... [2] https://twitter.com/internetofshit/status/817531891494457345 https://twitter.com/internetofshit/status/817531891494457345
      - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
        Try and buy a small television that doesn't suck, I tried and couldn't find anything.
      - matthewmacleod 10y ago
        I think that's difficult to conclude. A good example might be the implementation of 'smart' features on televisions. I'd love to buy a no-nonsense television that I could simply plug in to an HDMI cable and have display whatever I throw at it. I have a cable box, AV receiver etc. that provide the necessary source content. But it still takes up to a minute for my TV to boot; it displays adverts; it needs software updates; it contains a microphone. That's a bunch of sully features I'd rather not have, but I can't exactly vote with my money here! (It's technically possible to do that, but I'd have to pay a massive, huge premium for a mediocre product. I don't think that situation counts.)
  - ensiferum 10y ago
    Already it's getting difficult to find dummy versions of consumer appliances such as televisions. They all have Craproid or CrapOS now and all the bugs and problems, security breaches and vulnerabilities that come with it. A fridge has a 10-20 year expected life span as it is. Anyone think that any manufacturer is seriously commited to maintaining software for that duration of time? In fact I'm going to speculate that having the software become unmaintained would be used as a marketing incentive to have people renew their fridges every couple of years.
    - omeid2 10y ago
      No, currently they seem to be really bad at this, judging from cases like "Can't sign in to Google calendar on my Samsung refrigerator"[1]. But, isn't this exactly how big names get replaced by more modern and technologically savvy alternatives? or at least, the big names gets forced to adopt? [1]. https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/calendar/UhfpcwO0X0c https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/calendar/Uhfp...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

bostand 10y ago

I sure hope they also plan to provide security updates for the lifetime of these fridges (10-20 years?) and make them update without any need for user interaction.

d33 10y ago
It's more likely they limit the lifetime. ...or maybe they'll trigger a new era of IoT custom firmwares?
Inconel 10y ago
Or they could just make sure the appliances don't actually last 10-20 years. Update problem solved, just buy a new fridge.
dogma1138 10y ago
TBH since the IOT part is removable you might just buy a new panel every 10 or so years. After 20 years it's unlikely that you'll be able to connect it to anything anyhow, most Wifi 802.11a cards do not work anymore with modern routers. You can't connect a 20 year old cellphone to modern networks, and even 15 year old DSL modems can very well not work anymore in many countries, same goes for cable modems if you have a DOCSIS 1.1 modem you likely not going to be able to hook it up to a modern cable network since most of them run DOCSIS 2.0 or higher. So security updates should be mandated for the 7-10 years or so warranty period for large appliances, ideally you'll want more than that sure, but I don't think that connectivity would be common at that point.
- vic-traill 10y ago
  Your comment got me interested in what warranties are about for modern appliances (I'm cheap, I buy my appliances used). This link [0] asserts that LG warranties are diminished beyond one year, although some models continue parts-only coverage up to seven years, with a ten year parts warranty on the compressor of a particular style (so-called French Door models). The warranties are non-transferable from original owner. This [1] bottom-freezer French Door model's manual states the warrant is as described above (warranty summary table on page 55 of English manual). So we'd want to be careful about updates being supported for the warranty period - perhaps the longest term stated in the warranty, and updates required regardless of owner? [0] https://www.reference.com/home-garden/lg-s-warranty-policy-its-refrigerators-d9d16ea639defe57 https://www.reference.com/home-garden/lg-s-warranty-policy-i... [1] http://www.lg.com/us/support-product/lg-LFX31925ST http://www.lg.com/us/support-product/lg-LFX31925ST [edit: got rid of referral link on second ref]

wonko1 10y ago

Looking through their site the cheapest home applicances that LG sells are microwaves. They cost on the order of 100USD for the cheapest models. The cheapest Wifi "IoT" microcontrollers are on the order of 1USD. Seems like it might be a reasonable business move, even if it's just a box ticking exercise. I'll be surprised if they do put them in their lowest end products though. Perhaps those product lines are stable and won't be updated in 2017?

d33 10y ago
It's not just about a microcontroller, it's also about developing the software and them supporting and maintaining it.
- wonko1 10y ago
  I guess I was looking for a lower bound. I'll be surprised if they can manage to implement this on their cheapest products.
- catdog 10y ago
  You forget, we talk about IoT. > developing the software Oh quickly throw some shit together, not that much of a problem. > supporting and maintaining it. Haha good joke.

chris_wot 10y ago

I'm signalling plans to stop purchasing anything from LG in 2017. This is going to be a security nightmare.

dingaling 10y ago
It gives me the impetus to set up another SSID that just loops-back every packet to its sender. I was going to suggest not even associating them with an AP, but knowing how vendors code their software they'll probably overcome that 'problem' by having them search for and attach to the first open AP they find. So I might as well make that one be MyNullRoute.
- gruez 10y ago
  What's the advantage of this instead of not connecting to any wifi networks?
  - jungletek 10y ago
    Software that doesn't respect user settings. In this case, the fear is that wifi-capable devices may just associate with a random unsecured access point, on purpose but 'covertly', to send and/or receive unknown data, at the behest of the manufacturer.

petre 10y ago

The DDoS attacks of the future will to be caused by refrigerator, washing machines, TVs etc. along with surveilance cameras and routers. And the 2.4 GHz commercial band radio spectrum is going to get so crowded that legitimate WiFi shall be rendered useless.

Freak_NL 10y ago
This is probably the nastiest part of the whole Internet of Things hype. There is so much stuff that now comes with internet connected functionality that securing it all is simply not manageable. Sure, a household may demand that their smart thermostat keeps working reliably and securely, but how about the smart TV that's connected to WiFi, but is only used as a (classic) dumb screen? Or the talking doll the kids got for Christmas that talks back? (Yes, this is a thing!) Or the baby monitor? Or any other plug-and-play webcam? All of these devices are by design capable of performing HTTP requests, and can be exploited to perform DDOS attacks. There is no economic incentive to keep these devices secure once the warranty runs out, yet hackers do have a lot of interest in hacking whole classes of devices.
catdog 10y ago
It's not only the future, it's already happening. The Mirai botnet, mostly running on IoT devices, was used to perform massive DDoS attacks in 2016. This gives us a foretaste of what is to come when we can assume at least one vulnerable IoT device in more or less every household.

stuaxo 10y ago

A fridge with a glass door would be better. Or if you want a techie solution, glass that can be toggled between fogged or not.

regularfry 10y ago
This is such an obvious (and obviously good) idea, there must be a reason it's not done. Is it because it's difficult to get glass with the right thermal insulation properties?
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  If you go to any convenience store, you'll see this exact solution keeping drinks cold. The problem is that the refrigeration unit has to be running all the time or heat will enter through the glass.
  - Ericson2314 10y ago
    Heat via radiation? So would blinds not work?
- username223 10y ago
  Double- and triple-pane windows are a thing, so I doubt durability or cost is a problem. Are triple-pane windows that much worse than refrigerator doors?
- Something1234 10y ago
  No Door Storage? That could be a very good reason not for see through doors. Replacing them with glass makes it very difficult to see what is on the interior vs what is on the door.

baybal2 10y ago

I imagine my fridge showing me ads. 10 years ago, an idea that online ads will be put into offline software seemed ridiculous, but now that admob cr@p is being put into every piece of 'begware'

justinsaccount 10y ago

That's fine.. What's more of a problem is that the device will not have an open platform or even an open bootloader and be unsupported and obsolete in a few years.

codingdave 10y ago

> Alexa isn't an inherently bad fit for a refrigerator I think people are forgetting the purpose of a fridge. People already store food that doesn't need to be kept cool. They already throw out food based on dates stamped on packaging, not condition of the food. And they keep spoiled food in the back, forgotten. The fridge is a terribly mis-used kitchen device. So unless Alexa somehow develops a way to interact biologically with the contents, I do not see it as a good functional fit for that device.

dictum 10y ago
> So unless Alexa somehow develops a way to interact biologically with the contents This pipe dream overlaps with something I've wanted since I became a reluctant bodybuilder: an appliance to measure the macronutrients of a meal, or at least a viable, reasonably priced calorimeter.

e40 10y ago

If you don't want your LG device to connect to anything, then don't feed it your SSID and password. (I don't have any unsecured networks in range of my house, so there's no way LG devices could connect without me doing something.) I have a Samsung TV. I never hooked it up to my wifi, so it's a dumb device.

dictum 10y ago

I look forward to the "we couldn't foresee the security risks, we cannot be held responsible" non-apology in 2022.

redorb 10y ago

These type of try-hard (every appliance) efforts are crazy... The market hasn't demanded every appliance based on the sales of connected devices currently. I'd guess if they did do every appliance they quickly reverse and offer non connected devices very soon after.

Animats 10y ago

As the article points out, their "smart fridge" costs more than a regular fridge plus all the electronics involved. This has been an ongoing problem with LG since they put a tablet in a refrigerator door and raised the price by about $1000.

Lio 10y ago

Back in 2013 some LG TVs were caught scanning users' networks and connected drives.[1] At the time I think LG said that this was a mistake. Even taking that in good faith I would still be wary of connecting any LG consumer appliance to my own home network. [1] http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11/lg-smart-tv-snooping-extends-to-home-networks-second-blogger-says/ http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11/lg-smart-tv-snooping...