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One thing I've noticed in this thread and in other HN comments is a change in the way people talk about remote work. What used to be considered a perk seems to

One thing I've noticed in this thread and in other HN comments is a change in the way people talk about remote work. What used to be considered a perk seems to have turned into a right, and even a class issue (the corporate masters oppressing the workers). Personally, I don't really buy it. There are trade-offs with remote workers. They are harder to collaborate with, and they generally require more process to manage. On a huge team you might need all that process anyway, but if you only have 5-10 devs in the same office you can operate pretty lean. Stick a couple of them at home 5 days a week, however, and things need to be more actively managed. Tech workers today are doing alright. We make six-figure salaries, have our health care paid for, and, because we are in demand at them moment, are frequently pampered by our employers. So feel free to leverage that demand to insist on working remotely if that is what you want, but don't treat it as something you are owed out of fairness or suggest that a company is stupid if they don't adopt it. There are many companies and engineering managers who want their employees on site for good reasons, not just to "mind" them, and it is probably for many of the same reasons that startup incubators and accelerators generally require relocation.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago
> One thing I've noticed in this thread and in other HN comments is a change in the way people talk about remote work. What used to be considered a perk seems to have turned into a right, and even a class issue (the corporate masters oppressing the workers). Well, housing in areas with tech jobs has gotten really expensive. As in, $500k USD minimum for a decent house. It's insane, and remote work is the easiest solution with the least politics involved.
- beamatronic 10y ago
  I think you meant to say $500k is a decent down payment on a house, yes?
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    I'm sorry, yes. $500k for a decent small condo, but that'll be a down-payment on a decent house.
    - superuser2 10y ago
      Where are you seeing these? Basic 2-bedroom condos in the general vicinity of an East Bay BART stop seem to run $700-900k; SF proper with any hope of a short walk or bike ride to downtown, $1.3 - $2 million. There are $500k houses, but they're in Richmond. I think to be $500k, a condo would have to be far from transit in the East Bay, but such places are mostly single family homes.
xiaoma 10y ago
>"Tech workers today are doing alright. We make six-figure salaries, have our health care paid for, and, because we are in demand at them moment, are frequently pampered by our employers." You may and I may, but the vast majority of tech workers do not make six-figure salaries. Ironically, you may be insulated from that fact due to limited geographic mobility in terms of professional life.
- flukus 10y ago
  I think it's intended to be taken more figuratively. Tech workers won't make 6 figures everywhere, but are likely paid way above average just about everywhere.
BjoernKW 10y ago
Remote work is not a perk nor is it a privilege only a certain class of people should feel entitled to. Commuting has become absolutely insane. Mandating people to sit around in an office for a condsiderable amount of their time regardless of if they produce anything of value is equally insane. Remote work is a solution to many current societal problems (not the least of which is pollution).
geofft 10y ago
> We make six-figure salaries, have our health care paid for, and, because we are in demand at them moment, are frequently pampered by our employers. But (as 'eli_gottlieb pointed out) the only people who can do that are those who can afford to relocate to San Francisco or perhaps a few other places, and the initial cost of that is increasing commensurate with demand. We have, in the tech industry, found a very good way of creating interesting and well-paying jobs that will outlast a lot of the coming automation. We have so many of those jobs, and they keep being created, such that, as you say, workers are in an unusually good negotiating position compared to other industries. Meanwhile, the housing supply in San Francisco is much closer to fixed; of course if they don't decide to build housing it's very fixed, but even so there's only so much land there. So if the demand for workers continues to be high, the price of housing will continue to increase. It is a class issue to extend these benefits to people who otherwise couldn't afford the initial investment to relocate to San Francisco in this market and the emergency fund to keep living in San Francisco past unicorn-collapse-of-the-week while looking for new work. If we figure out how to increase supply to keep up with what looks like unquenchable and long-term demand, we'll be solving a major crisis for thousands of small towns that aren't San Francisco. I don't need remote work for myself; I have the good fortune to be a 10-minute (NYC) subway ride from my tech job. I want remote work for all the people who could be my coworkers.
- superuser2 10y ago
  >If we figure out how to increase supply to keep up with what looks like unquenchable and long-term demand The answer, as it always has been, is sprawl. We can't sprawl with cars anymore: land is too valuable to park on. So we're bidding with our time: moving to further-out transit stops, walking farther to the stations, tolerating increasing crowding on the trains (losing the ability to work and read). People who nominally make $50+/hour are spending 2, 3 hours a day commuting from their $2500/mo apartments. I don't mind being a passthrough for the transfer of wealth between tech investors and real estate investors. I am growing increasingly resentful about the hours of my life that I'll never get back, shuttling back and forth from where housing is affordable. I could technically live close to work, but not with an emergency fund. Maybe with roommates, but that's even worse.

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

> One thing I've noticed in this thread and in other HN comments is a change in the way people talk about remote work. What used to be considered a perk seems to have turned into a right, and even a class issue (the corporate masters oppressing the workers). Well, housing in areas with tech jobs has gotten really expensive. As in, $500k USD minimum for a decent house. It's insane, and remote work is the easiest solution with the least politics involved.

beamatronic 10y ago
I think you meant to say $500k is a decent down payment on a house, yes?
- eli_gottlieb 10y ago
  I'm sorry, yes. $500k for a decent small condo, but that'll be a down-payment on a decent house.
  - superuser2 10y ago
    Where are you seeing these? Basic 2-bedroom condos in the general vicinity of an East Bay BART stop seem to run $700-900k; SF proper with any hope of a short walk or bike ride to downtown, $1.3 - $2 million. There are $500k houses, but they're in Richmond. I think to be $500k, a condo would have to be far from transit in the East Bay, but such places are mostly single family homes.

xiaoma 10y ago

>"Tech workers today are doing alright. We make six-figure salaries, have our health care paid for, and, because we are in demand at them moment, are frequently pampered by our employers." You may and I may, but the vast majority of tech workers do not make six-figure salaries. Ironically, you may be insulated from that fact due to limited geographic mobility in terms of professional life.

flukus 10y ago
I think it's intended to be taken more figuratively. Tech workers won't make 6 figures everywhere, but are likely paid way above average just about everywhere.

BjoernKW 10y ago

Remote work is not a perk nor is it a privilege only a certain class of people should feel entitled to. Commuting has become absolutely insane. Mandating people to sit around in an office for a condsiderable amount of their time regardless of if they produce anything of value is equally insane. Remote work is a solution to many current societal problems (not the least of which is pollution).

geofft 10y ago

> We make six-figure salaries, have our health care paid for, and, because we are in demand at them moment, are frequently pampered by our employers. But (as 'eli_gottlieb pointed out) the only people who can do that are those who can afford to relocate to San Francisco or perhaps a few other places, and the initial cost of that is increasing commensurate with demand. We have, in the tech industry, found a very good way of creating interesting and well-paying jobs that will outlast a lot of the coming automation. We have so many of those jobs, and they keep being created, such that, as you say, workers are in an unusually good negotiating position compared to other industries. Meanwhile, the housing supply in San Francisco is much closer to fixed; of course if they don't decide to build housing it's very fixed, but even so there's only so much land there. So if the demand for workers continues to be high, the price of housing will continue to increase. It is a class issue to extend these benefits to people who otherwise couldn't afford the initial investment to relocate to San Francisco in this market and the emergency fund to keep living in San Francisco past unicorn-collapse-of-the-week while looking for new work. If we figure out how to increase supply to keep up with what looks like unquenchable and long-term demand, we'll be solving a major crisis for thousands of small towns that aren't San Francisco. I don't need remote work for myself; I have the good fortune to be a 10-minute (NYC) subway ride from my tech job. I want remote work for all the people who could be my coworkers.

superuser2 10y ago
>If we figure out how to increase supply to keep up with what looks like unquenchable and long-term demand The answer, as it always has been, is sprawl. We can't sprawl with cars anymore: land is too valuable to park on. So we're bidding with our time: moving to further-out transit stops, walking farther to the stations, tolerating increasing crowding on the trains (losing the ability to work and read). People who nominally make $50+/hour are spending 2, 3 hours a day commuting from their $2500/mo apartments. I don't mind being a passthrough for the transfer of wealth between tech investors and real estate investors. I am growing increasingly resentful about the hours of my life that I'll never get back, shuttling back and forth from where housing is affordable. I could technically live close to work, but not with an emergency fund. Maybe with roommates, but that's even worse.