8 ms·

Unified vision was nice. What interested me first in the Apple ecosystem was its use by high-end pros. Photographers, creatives, filmmakers. Then they announced

by mtw 10y ago

Unified vision was nice. What interested me first in the Apple ecosystem was its use by high-end pros. Photographers, creatives, filmmakers. Then they announced MacOS X, built upon NeXT/BSD, and the mac pro products. Now Microsoft has dedicated products for high-end creatives (Surface studio won't sell but still shows interest in pros), Linux Bash shell in windows 10. Meanwhile Apple wants pros to use a 9" tablet instead of a laptop.

qyv 10y ago
If 2017 turns out to be the year the VR starts to hit the main stream, which it could be, it will be interesting to see what Apple's response will be.
- user5994461 10y ago
  What's hitting the market? Didn't hear anything.
  - qyv 10y ago
    Windows 10 Creators Update along with a slew of headsets from major PC vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc.) starting at $300.
    - seanp2k2 10y ago
      The problem I see is that VR would be great with dual 2K screens and 120+hz , but we don't have the GPUS to push that many pixels today (in any remotely affordable way...maybe quad TitanX would work). Cheaper, lower-quality VR headsets will leave a bad impression on consumers. I don't think that's the direction we should be going. I'd rather see HTC and Oculus release higher-res, faster refresh rate HMDs, but I doubt they'd do that with no single GPU able to run those today.
      - tekromancr 10y ago
        When you get to scale, you can start doing things like manufacturing displays with higher PPI near where the lenses are centered. That way you have the same number of total physical pixels but a higher resolution contributing to the image. You can further reduce the computational costs by using foveated rendering(http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/johnsny/papers/foveated.pdf http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/johnsny/papers...). You can use low-latency eye-tracking to spend more time rendering the portions of the frame that the user is actively looking at. I think the combo of falling gpu prices, and clever hardware design means we will probably see headsets with effectively higher and higher resolutions sooner rather than later.
        zeroer 10y ago
        That's going to be difficult given how often and how fast eyes move and how sensitive they are.
        rtkwe 10y ago
        You'd need a new lens design for that really. Right now the lenses that are used aren't really good if you start looking to the side too much. When I get going in VR I generally just look with my head instead of my eyes to avoid those lens issues like chromatic aboration.
    - dagw 10y ago
      a slew of headsets from major PC vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc.) starting at $300. Wonder if that will help or hinder VR. Personally I think the Vive is just about the bare minimum needed for VR to barely be acceptable. If peoples first impression of VR is something less than that I doubt they'll be impressed enough to actually use VR for more than 15 minutes over the first 2 weeks after purchase.
- rimantas 10y ago
  It will be a year when VR hype scales back. Not the first time and not the last one.
- dagw 10y ago
  VR in 2017 will be 90+% about gaming, and Apple has never really cared about gaming. I doubt they'll start caring now all of a sudden.
  - nashashmi 10y ago
    VR is all about immersive experiences. Apple always cares about experiences. And my thoughts are that Apple cannot bring the same Stevie vision of simplicity and use to VR, which is why they will never care about it.
    - jerf 10y ago
      I'm not sure about that. It seems to me that VR is ripe for a high-end offering that is vertically integrated and quality assured. The VR landscape is already a bit fragmented and it probably won't get less so. They'll have to stick better graphics cards in their computers, but that's doable. Probably their biggest challenge would be coming up with a headset that is "Apple-y", given that the design issues involved in creating them right now still create something fundamentally klunky. (VR is starting to take off not because anyone's figured out how to make it not klunky, but because it transitioned from intolerably klunky to tolerably klunky. Along with the latency improvements.) I'm not saying they're going to do it. But they could.
  - grovegames 10y ago
    They make billions off gaming...
    - dagw 10y ago
      Fair enough. They've never cared about the sort of gaming commonly done on the sort of computers that will be able to do VR in 2017. When we get to the point where the iPad/iPhone can do high quality VR then I'll re-evaluate my statement.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- eva1984 10y ago
  How? Everyone suddenly realizes they have been closet gamer for many years and comes out for VR?
- ryanSrich 10y ago
  VR has a massive hurdle to get over. You can't expect people to drop $600 on a headset _and_ (at least) $1k on a machine that can run it. Costs will come down, but 2017 won't be the year. I expect VR to grow, but only in the gaming market.
  - imaginenore 10y ago
    You don't need a $1K machine for VR. Example: GTX 970 = $155: http://ebay.com/itm/371833128329 http://ebay.com/itm/371833128329 GTX 980 = $235: http://ebay.com/itm/291993305929 http://ebay.com/itm/291993305929 Gaming PC with GTX 970 = $540: http://ebay.com/itm/112250177638 http://ebay.com/itm/112250177638 Gaming PC with GTX 1070 = $690: http://ebay.com/itm/222369412011 http://ebay.com/itm/222369412011
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      I think ebay is the last place I'd buy pretty much anything. Especially when the price discrepancy between those listings and fully legit stores is so different. Just a personal observation.
      - imaginenore 10y ago
        Buy from the sellers with good reviews and lots of reviews, and you will be fine. And if you pay with PayPal, eBay guarantees to return your money if something goes wrong.
  - qyv 10y ago
    Not according to Microsoft, VR is going to be a big push for them this year. Granted a lot can go wrong, but they are addressing all the points you just listed: * Headset Pricing: Major OEMs will be releasing headsets starting at $300 [0] * Lowering system specs for VR [1] * Not just a gaming focus: Windows 10 creators update puts an emphasis on 3D and Mixed-Reality, including a 'holographic' interface [2] [0] http://1reddrop.com/2017/01/06/microsoft-announces-299-windows-10-vr-headsets-based-hololens-technology/ http://1reddrop.com/2017/01/06/microsoft-announces-299-windo... [1] http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2016/12/08/microsoft-unveils-surprisingly-low-spec-requirements-vr-window-holographic/ http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2016/12/08/microsoft-unveils... [2] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/upcoming-features https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/upcoming-features
- spectrum1234 10y ago
  Yea. Google is taking amazing steps to kill it in this market with Daydream. I have it and for the price (diff vs non high end phone) and $80 headset is it perfect.
- jclardy 10y ago
  I highly doubt it will be. And this is coming from an owner of a GTX 1080 and HTC Vive. There are some really awesome games and experiences, but there is nothing that I really want to keep going back to. No Rocket League or Minecraft (Well, there is vivecraft, but minecraft in VR just isn't that much more appealing to me than the vanilla game.) PSVR might get some stuff but for now it seems like most large companies are just putting their toes in the water by giving out small tech demos. VR needs a couple of things, and they aren't going to happen in less than a year. First and most importantly, cheaper and better hardware. Daydream is nice, but at most it is good for 360 video and some cheap games. Get some head tracking in there somehow and then it becomes interesting. Also, it needs something like the oculus touch controllers or vive controllers so you can actually use your hands for things. Secondly, an actual killer app. Some kind of game that only works in VR. Something that you want to keep coming back to. Lastly - simplicity. Daydream is simple but too limited. The vive has all the features but setting up lighthouses is a pain unless you can permanently mount them. Also being tethered to your computer sucks (A solution for that is on the way, but it will only add to the cost.) Headsets are still bulky and uncomfortable to wear for long periods. My point I guess is that Apple's typical timing with things would put them entering the market in 2018 at the earliest. This is like the early Windows Phone/PalmOS days before the iPhone (But I doubt Apple will be the one releasing the "iPhone" of VR.)
  - msabalau 10y ago
    Maybe. Of course killer apps don't have to spring full formed as launch titles. Visicalc arrived two and a half years after the launch of the Apple II. I don't think we can count out people coming up with something remarkable in 2017 given that there are platforms from Facebook, Google, Steam and Sony. As for myself, even without a killer app, VR has gotten me saving memories as photo spheres, in addition to pictures and videos.
  - kayoone 10y ago
    Tech Journalist Robert Scoble seems to be super certain that the next iPhone this year will be AR/VR and blow everyone away, he apparently has credible sources. Personally i don't buy it at all and can't wait for everyone to tell him "i told you so"
jsmith0295 10y ago
Surface Studio is actually selling at 2x what Microsoft anticipated it selling for, so it seems to be a bigger market than one would think.
- chrisabrams 10y ago
  The quality of the current line of surfaces is pretty good. A few friends who have needed a replacement computer/laptop but need to use Windows for work have opted for the Surface. Gives them nice portability and they don't really need an iPad (or can't afford a laptop and iPad).
bsder 10y ago
> Now Microsoft has dedicated products for high-end creatives (Surface studio won't sell but still shows interest in pros) Every single professional who uses the Surface Studio practically has an orgasm. If Microsoft keeps support up for it long enough that the CAD program developers are willing to take the plunge on the new features and integrate them into their programs, it will completely displace Apple with the high-end professionals. The question is whether Microsoft will keep pumping money into the line long enough to get the application developers on board. They've been burned several times.
- stcredzero 10y ago
  If Microsoft keeps support up for it long enough that the CAD program developers are willing to take the plunge on the new features and integrate them into their programs, it will completely displace Apple with the high-end professionals. I think it has huge potential outside of CAD. Anything that deals with complex flows of data/material would benefit from such an interface.
- badloginagain 10y ago
  > They've been burned several times. I see a fundamental shift has taken place at Microsoft under Satya's direction. Open-sourcing the core technologies that act as the foundation for Microsoft is a huge deal. Surface Studio uncompromisingly for pros (a big problem for MS hardware in the past is that they try to hedge their bets- try to jam stuff in there for everyone). When you think about how quickly this has changed, it looks like Satya has a clear vision for MS, and pros are part of that vision. When's the last time you've seen a 'visionary' Microsoft (that didn't involved delusional thinking)?
  - plussed_reader 10y ago
    That's what I thought too about Satya's tenure. I had heard great things about win10, and then I saw the ads and freemium paywall ware that lines the standard install of win10. Hard pass.
    - 10y ago
heroprotagonist 10y ago
> Linux Bash shell in windows 10 Despite their "this is all about the developer" statements, making Windows Subsystem for Linux unable to co-exist with VMware and other virtualization tools was a deal-breaker for me.
- mcpherrinm 10y ago
  Can you expand on this? Are you saying I can't run VMware while Windows Subsystem for Linux is running? I wasn't aware of such a limitation (because I don't use vmware etc.), but would like to know more.
  - blitzd 10y ago
    I believe it's based upon hyper-v, which typically precludes using other VM software on the same machine. Docker toolbox for Windows 10 has the same issues.
    - pirocks 10y ago
      I don't know much but the bash on windows thing was a completely separate thing from vm's.
    - hirsin 10y ago
      No, WSL does not require hyper-v. It is a totally separate system from hyper-v and does not rely on virtualization of any kind. You can use WSL alongside any other VM software.
  - heroprotagonist 10y ago
    Actually, I might be wrong. I thought it required Hyper-V, since it ran an Ubuntu under the covers, and that assumption might incorrect. Specifically, it's enabling Hyper-V which makes Windows incompatible with VMware. The incompatibility results in more issues than just those with the bash shell. The big one for me is Docker for Windows: https://forums.docker.com/t/docker-for-windows-w-vmware-installed/19011 https://forums.docker.com/t/docker-for-windows-w-vmware-inst... I think I will just try it out and revert back if there's an issue, since I can't find clear documentation about it being incompatible. So I assume I'm wrong. I can let you know if you like.

by mtw 10y ago

qyv 10y ago

If 2017 turns out to be the year the VR starts to hit the main stream, which it could be, it will be interesting to see what Apple's response will be.

user5994461 10y ago
What's hitting the market? Didn't hear anything.
- qyv 10y ago
  Windows 10 Creators Update along with a slew of headsets from major PC vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc.) starting at $300.
  - seanp2k2 10y ago
    The problem I see is that VR would be great with dual 2K screens and 120+hz , but we don't have the GPUS to push that many pixels today (in any remotely affordable way...maybe quad TitanX would work). Cheaper, lower-quality VR headsets will leave a bad impression on consumers. I don't think that's the direction we should be going. I'd rather see HTC and Oculus release higher-res, faster refresh rate HMDs, but I doubt they'd do that with no single GPU able to run those today.
    - tekromancr 10y ago
      When you get to scale, you can start doing things like manufacturing displays with higher PPI near where the lenses are centered. That way you have the same number of total physical pixels but a higher resolution contributing to the image. You can further reduce the computational costs by using foveated rendering(http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/johnsny/papers/foveated.pdf http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/johnsny/papers...). You can use low-latency eye-tracking to spend more time rendering the portions of the frame that the user is actively looking at. I think the combo of falling gpu prices, and clever hardware design means we will probably see headsets with effectively higher and higher resolutions sooner rather than later.
      - zeroer 10y ago
        That's going to be difficult given how often and how fast eyes move and how sensitive they are.
        rtkwe 10y ago
        You'd need a new lens design for that really. Right now the lenses that are used aren't really good if you start looking to the side too much. When I get going in VR I generally just look with my head instead of my eyes to avoid those lens issues like chromatic aboration.
  - dagw 10y ago
    a slew of headsets from major PC vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc.) starting at $300. Wonder if that will help or hinder VR. Personally I think the Vive is just about the bare minimum needed for VR to barely be acceptable. If peoples first impression of VR is something less than that I doubt they'll be impressed enough to actually use VR for more than 15 minutes over the first 2 weeks after purchase.
rimantas 10y ago
It will be a year when VR hype scales back. Not the first time and not the last one.
dagw 10y ago
VR in 2017 will be 90+% about gaming, and Apple has never really cared about gaming. I doubt they'll start caring now all of a sudden.
- nashashmi 10y ago
  VR is all about immersive experiences. Apple always cares about experiences. And my thoughts are that Apple cannot bring the same Stevie vision of simplicity and use to VR, which is why they will never care about it.
  - jerf 10y ago
    I'm not sure about that. It seems to me that VR is ripe for a high-end offering that is vertically integrated and quality assured. The VR landscape is already a bit fragmented and it probably won't get less so. They'll have to stick better graphics cards in their computers, but that's doable. Probably their biggest challenge would be coming up with a headset that is "Apple-y", given that the design issues involved in creating them right now still create something fundamentally klunky. (VR is starting to take off not because anyone's figured out how to make it not klunky, but because it transitioned from intolerably klunky to tolerably klunky. Along with the latency improvements.) I'm not saying they're going to do it. But they could.
- grovegames 10y ago
  They make billions off gaming...
  - dagw 10y ago
    Fair enough. They've never cared about the sort of gaming commonly done on the sort of computers that will be able to do VR in 2017. When we get to the point where the iPad/iPhone can do high quality VR then I'll re-evaluate my statement.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
eva1984 10y ago
How? Everyone suddenly realizes they have been closet gamer for many years and comes out for VR?
ryanSrich 10y ago
VR has a massive hurdle to get over. You can't expect people to drop $600 on a headset _and_ (at least) $1k on a machine that can run it. Costs will come down, but 2017 won't be the year. I expect VR to grow, but only in the gaming market.
- imaginenore 10y ago
  You don't need a $1K machine for VR. Example: GTX 970 = $155: http://ebay.com/itm/371833128329 http://ebay.com/itm/371833128329 GTX 980 = $235: http://ebay.com/itm/291993305929 http://ebay.com/itm/291993305929 Gaming PC with GTX 970 = $540: http://ebay.com/itm/112250177638 http://ebay.com/itm/112250177638 Gaming PC with GTX 1070 = $690: http://ebay.com/itm/222369412011 http://ebay.com/itm/222369412011
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    I think ebay is the last place I'd buy pretty much anything. Especially when the price discrepancy between those listings and fully legit stores is so different. Just a personal observation.
    - imaginenore 10y ago
      Buy from the sellers with good reviews and lots of reviews, and you will be fine. And if you pay with PayPal, eBay guarantees to return your money if something goes wrong.
- qyv 10y ago
  Not according to Microsoft, VR is going to be a big push for them this year. Granted a lot can go wrong, but they are addressing all the points you just listed: * Headset Pricing: Major OEMs will be releasing headsets starting at $300 [0] * Lowering system specs for VR [1] * Not just a gaming focus: Windows 10 creators update puts an emphasis on 3D and Mixed-Reality, including a 'holographic' interface [2] [0] http://1reddrop.com/2017/01/06/microsoft-announces-299-windows-10-vr-headsets-based-hololens-technology/ http://1reddrop.com/2017/01/06/microsoft-announces-299-windo... [1] http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2016/12/08/microsoft-unveils-surprisingly-low-spec-requirements-vr-window-holographic/ http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2016/12/08/microsoft-unveils... [2] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/upcoming-features https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/upcoming-features
spectrum1234 10y ago
Yea. Google is taking amazing steps to kill it in this market with Daydream. I have it and for the price (diff vs non high end phone) and $80 headset is it perfect.
jclardy 10y ago
I highly doubt it will be. And this is coming from an owner of a GTX 1080 and HTC Vive. There are some really awesome games and experiences, but there is nothing that I really want to keep going back to. No Rocket League or Minecraft (Well, there is vivecraft, but minecraft in VR just isn't that much more appealing to me than the vanilla game.) PSVR might get some stuff but for now it seems like most large companies are just putting their toes in the water by giving out small tech demos. VR needs a couple of things, and they aren't going to happen in less than a year. First and most importantly, cheaper and better hardware. Daydream is nice, but at most it is good for 360 video and some cheap games. Get some head tracking in there somehow and then it becomes interesting. Also, it needs something like the oculus touch controllers or vive controllers so you can actually use your hands for things. Secondly, an actual killer app. Some kind of game that only works in VR. Something that you want to keep coming back to. Lastly - simplicity. Daydream is simple but too limited. The vive has all the features but setting up lighthouses is a pain unless you can permanently mount them. Also being tethered to your computer sucks (A solution for that is on the way, but it will only add to the cost.) Headsets are still bulky and uncomfortable to wear for long periods. My point I guess is that Apple's typical timing with things would put them entering the market in 2018 at the earliest. This is like the early Windows Phone/PalmOS days before the iPhone (But I doubt Apple will be the one releasing the "iPhone" of VR.)
- msabalau 10y ago
  Maybe. Of course killer apps don't have to spring full formed as launch titles. Visicalc arrived two and a half years after the launch of the Apple II. I don't think we can count out people coming up with something remarkable in 2017 given that there are platforms from Facebook, Google, Steam and Sony. As for myself, even without a killer app, VR has gotten me saving memories as photo spheres, in addition to pictures and videos.
- kayoone 10y ago
  Tech Journalist Robert Scoble seems to be super certain that the next iPhone this year will be AR/VR and blow everyone away, he apparently has credible sources. Personally i don't buy it at all and can't wait for everyone to tell him "i told you so"

jsmith0295 10y ago

Surface Studio is actually selling at 2x what Microsoft anticipated it selling for, so it seems to be a bigger market than one would think.

chrisabrams 10y ago
The quality of the current line of surfaces is pretty good. A few friends who have needed a replacement computer/laptop but need to use Windows for work have opted for the Surface. Gives them nice portability and they don't really need an iPad (or can't afford a laptop and iPad).

bsder 10y ago

> Now Microsoft has dedicated products for high-end creatives (Surface studio won't sell but still shows interest in pros) Every single professional who uses the Surface Studio practically has an orgasm. If Microsoft keeps support up for it long enough that the CAD program developers are willing to take the plunge on the new features and integrate them into their programs, it will completely displace Apple with the high-end professionals. The question is whether Microsoft will keep pumping money into the line long enough to get the application developers on board. They've been burned several times.

stcredzero 10y ago
If Microsoft keeps support up for it long enough that the CAD program developers are willing to take the plunge on the new features and integrate them into their programs, it will completely displace Apple with the high-end professionals. I think it has huge potential outside of CAD. Anything that deals with complex flows of data/material would benefit from such an interface.
badloginagain 10y ago
> They've been burned several times. I see a fundamental shift has taken place at Microsoft under Satya's direction. Open-sourcing the core technologies that act as the foundation for Microsoft is a huge deal. Surface Studio uncompromisingly for pros (a big problem for MS hardware in the past is that they try to hedge their bets- try to jam stuff in there for everyone). When you think about how quickly this has changed, it looks like Satya has a clear vision for MS, and pros are part of that vision. When's the last time you've seen a 'visionary' Microsoft (that didn't involved delusional thinking)?
- plussed_reader 10y ago
  That's what I thought too about Satya's tenure. I had heard great things about win10, and then I saw the ads and freemium paywall ware that lines the standard install of win10. Hard pass.
  - 10y ago

heroprotagonist 10y ago

> Linux Bash shell in windows 10 Despite their "this is all about the developer" statements, making Windows Subsystem for Linux unable to co-exist with VMware and other virtualization tools was a deal-breaker for me.

mcpherrinm 10y ago
Can you expand on this? Are you saying I can't run VMware while Windows Subsystem for Linux is running? I wasn't aware of such a limitation (because I don't use vmware etc.), but would like to know more.
- blitzd 10y ago
  I believe it's based upon hyper-v, which typically precludes using other VM software on the same machine. Docker toolbox for Windows 10 has the same issues.
  - pirocks 10y ago
    I don't know much but the bash on windows thing was a completely separate thing from vm's.
  - hirsin 10y ago
    No, WSL does not require hyper-v. It is a totally separate system from hyper-v and does not rely on virtualization of any kind. You can use WSL alongside any other VM software.
- heroprotagonist 10y ago
  Actually, I might be wrong. I thought it required Hyper-V, since it ran an Ubuntu under the covers, and that assumption might incorrect. Specifically, it's enabling Hyper-V which makes Windows incompatible with VMware. The incompatibility results in more issues than just those with the bash shell. The big one for me is Docker for Windows: https://forums.docker.com/t/docker-for-windows-w-vmware-installed/19011 https://forums.docker.com/t/docker-for-windows-w-vmware-inst... I think I will just try it out and revert back if there's an issue, since I can't find clear documentation about it being incompatible. So I assume I'm wrong. I can let you know if you like.