6 ms·

Research papers in the .NET source

180 points by matthewwarren 10y ago

NKCSS 10y ago
This Midori project looks interesting: http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/ http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Yes, you should check this presentation as well Safe Systems Programming in C# and .NET https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programming?utm_source=infoq&utm_medium=videos_homepage&utm_campaign=videos_row1 https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programmi... It details some of the Midori project lessons learned and how they impact the design of C# 7, .NET Native and future .NET versions.
  - matthewwarren 10y ago
    Yeah that's a great presentation, they did some pretty cool things as part of the Midori project!
- krylon 10y ago
  It sounds absolutely fascinating, but it's a little sad that it did not go beyond the research stage. Like building a flying car and then hiding it in a garage. I understand how difficult it would have been for Microsoft to turn Midori into a product, but still I would like to see what that would have been like.
  - matthewwarren 10y ago
    Well, as I understand it, several of the Midori devs are now working on the Roslyn compiler and/or the CLR. So so of the lessons learnt will make it into the runtime, so at least that's something. But yeah it would be nice if they could open-source it.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Well, part of it has become .NET Native, C# 7 ref types, struct based tuples, vector spans and influenced the design of WinRT. So that is something.
  - serbrech 10y ago
    I don't agree. I think it's one of the strength of a large corp like MS. They are able to separate research and prototyping from product development. You don't turn a research project into a product. You learn from it and incorporate it into your products
    - krylon 10y ago
      I think they could have turned it into a product if they had wanted to. They had, however, a very, very good reason not to - it probably would not have been backwards compatible with Win32, so the huge amount of third-party software that exists today could not have run on it. And that - whether one likes Windows or not - is a very compelling selling point. So things they learned building Midori will trickle back into the Windows/.Net world. I agree that that is what a good research department is for. But still, it would have been nice to take Midori for a test drive and see what it would have been like.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
wintom 10y ago
The papers are great, a lot of research has been done in this area despite the closed nature of .net prior to the recent open sourcing. Too tough to summarize in one comment but I want to add a few things for anyone thinking of checking them out. I firmly believe .NET poses a fantastic programming environment for anyone to build systems, applications, the back bone of companies on top of. I think its significantly better than Java and has received much better support form Microsoft than the Java eco system and the JVM has from Oracle. Functional languages like F# are allowing startups to build systems quickly that can scale from 0 to millions of users and I think this whole eco system, now that its open, is due for a renaissance.
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  > I think its significantly better than Java and has received much better support form Microsoft than the Java eco system and the JVM has from Oracle. Several of these papers that you are giving as evidence for Microsoft's better investment are actually about research done into the JVM, by Oracle. I would guess, but can't really prove, that Oracle invests more money into VM research than anyone else in the world.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    You may be right about Oracle, but I certainly can't tell from the VM offerings they put out.
    - chrisseaton 10y ago
      Do you really think the engineering in the JVM is that bad? I can't think of many VMs that have the technical capabilities that HotSpot or Graal do. The CLR doesn't even do basic speculative optimisations. Maybe Azul Zing or J9 are comparable in terms of the advanced techniques they use, but would you really put the Oracle JVM that far behind? I'm not sure there's any sound technical basis for that.
      - wavefunction 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
arthur2e5 10y ago
Just for fun I searched for "pdf" and "paper" in the other popular .NET JIT runtime, and here's what I got: - SSAPRE: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/docs/ssapre.txt#L249 - Dice, thin locks: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/49c26ad/mono/metadata/monitor.c#L51 - IBS Tree: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/mcs/class/referencesource/System.ServiceModel/System/ServiceModel/Dispatcher/QueryIntervalOp.cs#L10 - Huffman tree: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/mcs/class/referencesource/System/sys/system/IO/compression/HuffmanTree.cs#L16 - GC survey: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/libgc/doc/gcdescr.html#L13 - malloc survey: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/mono/utils/dlmalloc.c#L1501
- matthewwarren 10y ago
  Ah good point, I completely forgot about searching in the Mono source, thanks for doing that
mckoss 10y ago
Has anyone done the same thing for the patents? They won't be as readable, but I would assume there are far more disclosed inventions developed by the .NET teams than academic papers (and you'd have to search the USPTO database instead of the .NET sources).
- matthewwarren 10y ago
  I did think about adding this to the post, but I thought it was long enough already. I only got as far as this google search https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=ininventor:Microsoft&num=10#hl=en&tbm=pts&q=ininventor:Microsoft+.NET+CLR https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=ininve..., so seems like there is a few
EIGHTime 10y ago
https://teespring.com/fr/robot-1846#pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front https://teespring.com/fr/robot-1846#pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front https://teespring.com/fr/get-home-run#pid=2&cid=581&sid=front https://teespring.com/fr/get-home-run#pid=2&cid=581&sid=fron...
sremani 10y ago
As the first comment to Original column from Tomas Patricek pointed out, here is a link to research publications related to F#. http://fsharp.org/teaching/research.html http://fsharp.org/teaching/research.html

180 points by matthewwarren 10y ago

NKCSS 10y ago

This Midori project looks interesting: http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/ http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/

pjmlp 10y ago
Yes, you should check this presentation as well Safe Systems Programming in C# and .NET https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programming?utm_source=infoq&utm_medium=videos_homepage&utm_campaign=videos_row1 https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programmi... It details some of the Midori project lessons learned and how they impact the design of C# 7, .NET Native and future .NET versions.
- matthewwarren 10y ago
  Yeah that's a great presentation, they did some pretty cool things as part of the Midori project!
krylon 10y ago
It sounds absolutely fascinating, but it's a little sad that it did not go beyond the research stage. Like building a flying car and then hiding it in a garage. I understand how difficult it would have been for Microsoft to turn Midori into a product, but still I would like to see what that would have been like.
- matthewwarren 10y ago
  Well, as I understand it, several of the Midori devs are now working on the Roslyn compiler and/or the CLR. So so of the lessons learnt will make it into the runtime, so at least that's something. But yeah it would be nice if they could open-source it.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Well, part of it has become .NET Native, C# 7 ref types, struct based tuples, vector spans and influenced the design of WinRT. So that is something.
- serbrech 10y ago
  I don't agree. I think it's one of the strength of a large corp like MS. They are able to separate research and prototyping from product development. You don't turn a research project into a product. You learn from it and incorporate it into your products
  - krylon 10y ago
    I think they could have turned it into a product if they had wanted to. They had, however, a very, very good reason not to - it probably would not have been backwards compatible with Win32, so the huge amount of third-party software that exists today could not have run on it. And that - whether one likes Windows or not - is a very compelling selling point. So things they learned building Midori will trickle back into the Windows/.Net world. I agree that that is what a good research department is for. But still, it would have been nice to take Midori for a test drive and see what it would have been like.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

wintom 10y ago

The papers are great, a lot of research has been done in this area despite the closed nature of .net prior to the recent open sourcing. Too tough to summarize in one comment but I want to add a few things for anyone thinking of checking them out. I firmly believe .NET poses a fantastic programming environment for anyone to build systems, applications, the back bone of companies on top of. I think its significantly better than Java and has received much better support form Microsoft than the Java eco system and the JVM has from Oracle. Functional languages like F# are allowing startups to build systems quickly that can scale from 0 to millions of users and I think this whole eco system, now that its open, is due for a renaissance.

chrisseaton 10y ago
> I think its significantly better than Java and has received much better support form Microsoft than the Java eco system and the JVM has from Oracle. Several of these papers that you are giving as evidence for Microsoft's better investment are actually about research done into the JVM, by Oracle. I would guess, but can't really prove, that Oracle invests more money into VM research than anyone else in the world.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  You may be right about Oracle, but I certainly can't tell from the VM offerings they put out.
  - chrisseaton 10y ago
    Do you really think the engineering in the JVM is that bad? I can't think of many VMs that have the technical capabilities that HotSpot or Graal do. The CLR doesn't even do basic speculative optimisations. Maybe Azul Zing or J9 are comparable in terms of the advanced techniques they use, but would you really put the Oracle JVM that far behind? I'm not sure there's any sound technical basis for that.
    - wavefunction 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

arthur2e5 10y ago

Just for fun I searched for "pdf" and "paper" in the other popular .NET JIT runtime, and here's what I got: - SSAPRE: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/docs/ssapre.txt#L249 - Dice, thin locks: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/49c26ad/mono/metadata/monitor.c#L51 - IBS Tree: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/mcs/class/referencesource/System.ServiceModel/System/ServiceModel/Dispatcher/QueryIntervalOp.cs#L10 - Huffman tree: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/mcs/class/referencesource/System/sys/system/IO/compression/HuffmanTree.cs#L16 - GC survey: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/libgc/doc/gcdescr.html#L13 - malloc survey: https://github.com/mono/mono/blob/0bcbe39/mono/utils/dlmalloc.c#L1501

matthewwarren 10y ago
Ah good point, I completely forgot about searching in the Mono source, thanks for doing that

mckoss 10y ago

Has anyone done the same thing for the patents? They won't be as readable, but I would assume there are far more disclosed inventions developed by the .NET teams than academic papers (and you'd have to search the USPTO database instead of the .NET sources).

matthewwarren 10y ago
I did think about adding this to the post, but I thought it was long enough already. I only got as far as this google search https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=ininventor:Microsoft&num=10#hl=en&tbm=pts&q=ininventor:Microsoft+.NET+CLR https://www.google.co.uk/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=ininve..., so seems like there is a few

EIGHTime 10y ago

https://teespring.com/fr/robot-1846#pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front https://teespring.com/fr/robot-1846#pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front https://teespring.com/fr/get-home-run#pid=2&cid=581&sid=front https://teespring.com/fr/get-home-run#pid=2&cid=581&sid=fron...

sremani 10y ago

As the first comment to Original column from Tomas Patricek pointed out, here is a link to research publications related to F#. http://fsharp.org/teaching/research.html http://fsharp.org/teaching/research.html