4 ms·

> the Vivaldi guys insist on pouring resources into an integrated desktop email client instead, because that was a signature feature of Opera back in the day.

by suprfnk 10y ago

> the Vivaldi guys insist on pouring resources into an integrated desktop email client instead, because that was a signature feature of Opera back in the day. Really? That's dumb. Why would I want my browser to check my email? That should be another program, or just a webpage. The browser browses the internet. Perhaps I'm not the audience, as I've always liked the Unix "do one thing and do it well" approach.

Fnoord 10y ago
> The browser browses the internet. You mean 'the World Wide Web' [1] since 'the Internet' includes other protocols than HTTP(S) such as SMTP, POP3, and IMAP. Nowadays, Node is everywhere. Slack, using JavaScript, is replacing IRC. One of the best e-mail clients is Nylas N1 which uses JavaScript under the hood. Hyper is a terminal using JavaScript. Discord is becoming the defacto standard for VoIP gaming, and uses JavaScript under the hood. In a way, the WWW -via JavaScript- is invading the space of the traditional protocols. You may find that bloat, but all of the above applications provide an excellent user experience. The UIs work very well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web
- StavrosK 10y ago
  > The UIs work very well. Maybe on your top-of-the-line computer. On my two-year-old Macbook Air, browsing the web is pure frustration, because everything is slow. Don't even get me started on how inferior Slack is compared to a local IRC client.
  - rootlocus 10y ago
    Kind of off-topic, but is a two year old Mackbook Air having problems with just browsing the web? Because if it's not a "top-of-the-line computer", it sure costs more than one.
    - StavrosK 10y ago
      This thread spurred me to do some testing, and it turned out that the "HTTPS everywhere" extension was slowing down pageloads in Firefox by MULTIPLE SECONDS. https://www.tithess.gr/ https://www.tithess.gr/ loaded in 1.3 seconds in Chrome and 6.8 in Firefox. Disabling HTTPS everywhere brought them to parity, but I'm going to switch to Vivaldi, I think. I've been having problems with slowness for years with this. I dreaded having to open the browser every time. Hopefully now it will be a better, and it's looking much better so far...
  - Fnoord 10y ago
    > Maybe on your top-of-the-line computer. On my two-year-old Macbook Air, browsing the web is pure frustration, because everything is slow. I recently replaced my 15" MBP 2010 with a 15" MBP 2015, but that wasn't because of the speed of applications. Try to use some browser addons to make the web work quicker, like uBlock. > Don't even get me started on how inferior Slack is compared to a local IRC client. Slack is just one example. Personally, I'm not a proponent of a proprietary software client based on open standards (stuff like Electron, JS, etc). IRC is just a protocol, with many clients available.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  I'm not sure about the excellent user experience and UIs working well. Im my experience of fixing computers for everyday people with not so fast DSL connections, those javascript based things usually have terrible performance and causes problems by breaking basic web browser functionalities such as history and bookmarks that those people rely on. Then there are the UI issue of too small resolution, or increased font size to help with bad vision and many other accessibility concerns. But I suppose that if you are using a recent computer, on a large flat screen, on high speed internet connection, and do not use privacy related features such as ublock, noscript or policy control you probably enjoy a flawless experience. To me relying only on javascript for your web service or site is akin to answering the customer phone line 0.5% of the time by saying "f* ck you * ssh* le, I sh*t on your ugly face".
  - Fnoord 10y ago
    Fair enough regarding websites, but I was talking about rich feature clients for usage other than the WWW ie. other protocols than HTTP(S). If you prefer, you're free to use more lightweight applications. I could mention you're free to put JS off, but I know that isn't always feasible. I agree w/you that this sucks. Majorly.

by suprfnk 10y ago

Fnoord 10y ago

> The browser browses the internet. You mean 'the World Wide Web' [1] since 'the Internet' includes other protocols than HTTP(S) such as SMTP, POP3, and IMAP. Nowadays, Node is everywhere. Slack, using JavaScript, is replacing IRC. One of the best e-mail clients is Nylas N1 which uses JavaScript under the hood. Hyper is a terminal using JavaScript. Discord is becoming the defacto standard for VoIP gaming, and uses JavaScript under the hood. In a way, the WWW -via JavaScript- is invading the space of the traditional protocols. You may find that bloat, but all of the above applications provide an excellent user experience. The UIs work very well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web

StavrosK 10y ago
> The UIs work very well. Maybe on your top-of-the-line computer. On my two-year-old Macbook Air, browsing the web is pure frustration, because everything is slow. Don't even get me started on how inferior Slack is compared to a local IRC client.
- rootlocus 10y ago
  Kind of off-topic, but is a two year old Mackbook Air having problems with just browsing the web? Because if it's not a "top-of-the-line computer", it sure costs more than one.
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    This thread spurred me to do some testing, and it turned out that the "HTTPS everywhere" extension was slowing down pageloads in Firefox by MULTIPLE SECONDS. https://www.tithess.gr/ https://www.tithess.gr/ loaded in 1.3 seconds in Chrome and 6.8 in Firefox. Disabling HTTPS everywhere brought them to parity, but I'm going to switch to Vivaldi, I think. I've been having problems with slowness for years with this. I dreaded having to open the browser every time. Hopefully now it will be a better, and it's looking much better so far...
- Fnoord 10y ago
  > Maybe on your top-of-the-line computer. On my two-year-old Macbook Air, browsing the web is pure frustration, because everything is slow. I recently replaced my 15" MBP 2010 with a 15" MBP 2015, but that wasn't because of the speed of applications. Try to use some browser addons to make the web work quicker, like uBlock. > Don't even get me started on how inferior Slack is compared to a local IRC client. Slack is just one example. Personally, I'm not a proponent of a proprietary software client based on open standards (stuff like Electron, JS, etc). IRC is just a protocol, with many clients available.
bigbugbag 10y ago
I'm not sure about the excellent user experience and UIs working well. Im my experience of fixing computers for everyday people with not so fast DSL connections, those javascript based things usually have terrible performance and causes problems by breaking basic web browser functionalities such as history and bookmarks that those people rely on. Then there are the UI issue of too small resolution, or increased font size to help with bad vision and many other accessibility concerns. But I suppose that if you are using a recent computer, on a large flat screen, on high speed internet connection, and do not use privacy related features such as ublock, noscript or policy control you probably enjoy a flawless experience. To me relying only on javascript for your web service or site is akin to answering the customer phone line 0.5% of the time by saying "f* ck you * ssh* le, I sh*t on your ugly face".
- Fnoord 10y ago
  Fair enough regarding websites, but I was talking about rich feature clients for usage other than the WWW ie. other protocols than HTTP(S). If you prefer, you're free to use more lightweight applications. I could mention you're free to put JS off, but I know that isn't always feasible. I agree w/you that this sucks. Majorly.