5 ms·

For what appears to be such a well researched article, the author completely gets the theology of Methodists and Baptists wrong. Not only does he do a poor job

by dkhenry 10y ago

For what appears to be such a well researched article, the author completely gets the theology of Methodists and Baptists wrong. Not only does he do a poor job of trying to explain Arminianism, and he associates it with Baptists, which it isn't, but he says the Baptists and Methodists originated as part of the Second Great Awakening they both predate it by a century or more. Also I have never even heard of "perfectionism" and a quick google/wikipedia of it turns up no reference other then to this specific cult. As a clarification Puritan and Calvinist theology would hold to the "sainthood of the believer" which appears to be identical to the idea of Perfectionism raised in this article.

rubidium 10y ago
I wouldn't put it quite so starkly as "completely... wrong". It was a jumbled time for the movements and sects of Protestantism. Perfectionism was a valid strain of Methodism, see Wesley's sermon: http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/John-Wesley-Sermons/Sermon-40-Christian-Perfection http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/John-Wesley-Sermons.... There are PhD's thesis I could point you to if interested (look through Notre Dame's archives). Sainthood of the believer is a bit different from perfectionism, as perfectionism was the final stage of the christian journey in some strains of Methodism (vs. the predestined state).... but it all got a little messy in that era. Regarding that it's true both baptists and methodists originated well before the 2nd great awakening, but both certainly saw big growth due to it. All of that fun history stuff aside, the Oneida Community was clearly off in terms of normal Christianity theology and practice (and the article points to many examples of poor discernment). They made a nice brand of silverware though!
- ktRolster 10y ago
  "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." -Matthew 5:48
  - koenigdavidmj 10y ago
    It's actually pretty rare among Christians to believe that this implies that ceasing sinning is possible. The Nazarene denomination is really the only notable group that believes that today. The more common understanding is that lines like this are meant to drive to despair ("Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" -Romans 7:24) anyone who thinks they're getting close to perfect obedience. Only the perfect obedience of someone else (Christ himself being the only one fitting that description) is suitable to reach glory.
    - ktRolster 10y ago
      It's actually pretty rare among Christians to believe that.... I'm kind of doubting that's relevant to the actual meaning of the Bible. For example, the book of John can be seen as patterned on the Greco-Roman mystery religions. How would they feel about that, hmmmm?
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      > The Nazarene denomination is really the only notable group that believes that today. At least not entirely correct. The group I belong to considers this important. We are only a few thousand though.
      - dkhenry 10y ago
        What group would that be if you don't mind sharing ?
        reitanqild 10y ago
        Not here to advertise or linkspam so, using rot13, here is the website: uggc://npgvirpuevfgvnavgl.bet/
  - adfm 10y ago
    Nothing is as perfect as you believe it to be.
- dkhenry 10y ago
  History is fun. I now have something new to read up one, Perfectionism.
replicatorblog 10y ago
She
alistoriv 10y ago
Well, Christian Perfection is a traditionally Wesleyan idea. Although that isn't saying that Christians could be free from all sin, only that they /could/ be free from all /conscious/ sin. Sainthood of the Believer is something that's generally held by all Protestants and is basically another way of saying sola fide (by faith alone). It's just using the more traditional definition of saint (anyone that's in Heaven).

by dkhenry 10y ago

rubidium 10y ago

I wouldn't put it quite so starkly as "completely... wrong". It was a jumbled time for the movements and sects of Protestantism. Perfectionism was a valid strain of Methodism, see Wesley's sermon: http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/John-Wesley-Sermons/Sermon-40-Christian-Perfection http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/John-Wesley-Sermons.... There are PhD's thesis I could point you to if interested (look through Notre Dame's archives). Sainthood of the believer is a bit different from perfectionism, as perfectionism was the final stage of the christian journey in some strains of Methodism (vs. the predestined state).... but it all got a little messy in that era. Regarding that it's true both baptists and methodists originated well before the 2nd great awakening, but both certainly saw big growth due to it. All of that fun history stuff aside, the Oneida Community was clearly off in terms of normal Christianity theology and practice (and the article points to many examples of poor discernment). They made a nice brand of silverware though!

ktRolster 10y ago
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." -Matthew 5:48
- koenigdavidmj 10y ago
  It's actually pretty rare among Christians to believe that this implies that ceasing sinning is possible. The Nazarene denomination is really the only notable group that believes that today. The more common understanding is that lines like this are meant to drive to despair ("Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" -Romans 7:24) anyone who thinks they're getting close to perfect obedience. Only the perfect obedience of someone else (Christ himself being the only one fitting that description) is suitable to reach glory.
  - ktRolster 10y ago
    It's actually pretty rare among Christians to believe that.... I'm kind of doubting that's relevant to the actual meaning of the Bible. For example, the book of John can be seen as patterned on the Greco-Roman mystery religions. How would they feel about that, hmmmm?
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    > The Nazarene denomination is really the only notable group that believes that today. At least not entirely correct. The group I belong to considers this important. We are only a few thousand though.
    - dkhenry 10y ago
      What group would that be if you don't mind sharing ?
      - reitanqild 10y ago
        Not here to advertise or linkspam so, using rot13, here is the website: uggc://npgvirpuevfgvnavgl.bet/
- adfm 10y ago
  Nothing is as perfect as you believe it to be.
dkhenry 10y ago
History is fun. I now have something new to read up one, Perfectionism.

replicatorblog 10y ago

She

alistoriv 10y ago

Well, Christian Perfection is a traditionally Wesleyan idea. Although that isn't saying that Christians could be free from all sin, only that they /could/ be free from all /conscious/ sin. Sainthood of the Believer is something that's generally held by all Protestants and is basically another way of saying sola fide (by faith alone). It's just using the more traditional definition of saint (anyone that's in Heaven).