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I find myself doing the same thing with HN. Most of the time I love it, but it seems once in awhile the contrarians come out to play, and meaningful discussions

I find myself doing the same thing with HN. Most of the time I love it, but it seems once in awhile the contrarians come out to play, and meaningful discussions drop to zero.

aaron-lebo 10y ago
As someone who is feeling more and more contrarian lately in my comments here and regretting it, I think it's because after a decade of HN, everything starts to the look the same. Everybody is trying to sell a framework, a startup, a language, or their own personal brand and it turns into a big circlejerk of everyone patting themselves on the back because they've got some secret knowledge. Sometimes it doesn't seem like any real learning is going on as nothing is scientific or rigorous or anything more than an anecdote. You start to wonder how different some of this stuff is than hundreds of religions that have long since died. This is a larger issue with developer burnout I suspect. You master one thing and there's someone standing on the corner saying..."well, actually, I've got something better" and there's a very real anxiety in that evaluation process. Does object-oriented programming suck? Are functional languages the future? Do you really want an SPA? Should you replace your C codebase with Rust... or Go? Is Bitcoin worth getting in on? etc etc You will interact with some of the most brilliant people on HN, and most of them are friendly and mean well, but without actual disagreement nothing interesting gets said. ...that wasn't intentionally contrarian.
- ekidd 10y ago
  > Should you replace your C codebase with Rust... or Go? Handy sanity tip: If your question begins "Should you replace your ____ codebase?", you can automatically answer "No." If you're really starting to hate your codebase, you're allowed to rewrite one module using a new tech stack, but only if that tech stack seems uniquely well suited to the task at hand. Maybe it will suck. Maybe it won't. If it doesn't suck, you can use a bit more of the new technology in other places. This will lower your stress and give you an opportunity to futz around with something promising every now and then. As a strategy, it will probably work best if you occasionally enjoy new technologies, but you're conservative about what you're willing to use in production. It also helps if you have occasional throwaway open source projects for trying out stuff that looks too new for professional use.
  - tuxxy 10y ago
    That's a really good measure. Thanks!
- lacampbell 10y ago
  I've enjoyed arguing (debating?) who with people about OO and FP here. I don't get the downvoting backlash despite going a bit against current fashions (I still like objects and think they make a great foundation for computing in general). The only time I get heavily downvoted for being critical is when I mention a certain programming language - which I happen to like.
  - mikekchar 10y ago
    The only time I've ever been heavily down voted here is when I've been blatantly wrong (although it sometimes takes me a while to figure out what was wrong about what I said). I often enjoy your posts, which I find quite insightful at times. I was actually surprised that you found yourself downvoted, so I had a quick peek. In reviewing the posts which appear to have been downvoted recently I have to say that they seem to be unnecessarily inflamatory. Possibly some frustration you feel is escaping. I'm sure when you look at it, it doesn't seem so because your view is filtered by the context of what you meant rather than specifically what you said. Others don't have the ability to distinguish that as easily. Experimenting with other ways of expressing that frustration will probably help. My own personal experience has been that when I consciously tackled this issue, it really helped my professional life as well. I had a pretty bad reputation as being negative early in my career.
    - lacampbell 10y ago
      I think some places and people have a very low tolerance for bluntness. I have quite a high tolerance for it. I actually tone myself down here a lot (partly due to the fact that this is my real name). I enjoy opinionated and provocative communication that others just can't stomach. For example I find the 'rants' of Linus Torvalds completely inoffensive, even when I disagree with them. Colour and passion is a good thing and there's no reason to get too upset about our different preferences in pushing bits around, or shy away from strong language. I guess this doesn't sit well with this new breed of progressive programmer with their codes of conduct and all the rest of it. Oh well. I often enjoy your posts, which I find quite insightful at times. Thanks - I try.
  - 10y ago
user837387 10y ago
HN is full of contrarians. Say anything blunt, not rude but blunt, and you will get down-voted to oblivion. And not even that, say something in a polite way that people cannot discredit but still not like and you will get down-voted. I feel like you have to mold yourself to the hive mind if you want your stuff to be up-voted. Not sure if this is really how it is or if it is just me. On the other hand, a lot of times when I say some feel good one liner BS I get dozens of up-votes.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  No, it isn't. That may seem like a flippant joke, but I assure you that my intent is that it only be about 60% that. I am not gratuitously disagreeing here, as it is my sincere opinion that when people here argue for the opposite of what a parent post says, it is more often than not because they genuinely believe that it contains an error of fact or because they wish to express their own, different opinion on the matter. As for up-votes and down-votes, that's a measure of popularity, not correctness. You can be right about everything and still be unpopular.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  the easiest way to collect upvotes is effluvient praise for whichever silicon valley company is currently the "great golden hope". the easiest way to collect downvotes is to contradict any of PG's implicit or explicit biases. the weight of mass down-voting seems to have improved since sama has taken over and PG is blogging less.
  - willstrafach 10y ago
    interestingly, posts such as yours (calling out hivemind / mass up/down-voting) seem to easily get a large amount of upvotes as well.
    - dasil003 10y ago

I find myself doing the same thing with HN. Most of the time I love it, but it seems once in awhile the contrarians come out to play, and meaningful discussions drop to zero.

aaron-lebo 10y ago

As someone who is feeling more and more contrarian lately in my comments here and regretting it, I think it's because after a decade of HN, everything starts to the look the same. Everybody is trying to sell a framework, a startup, a language, or their own personal brand and it turns into a big circlejerk of everyone patting themselves on the back because they've got some secret knowledge. Sometimes it doesn't seem like any real learning is going on as nothing is scientific or rigorous or anything more than an anecdote. You start to wonder how different some of this stuff is than hundreds of religions that have long since died. This is a larger issue with developer burnout I suspect. You master one thing and there's someone standing on the corner saying..."well, actually, I've got something better" and there's a very real anxiety in that evaluation process. Does object-oriented programming suck? Are functional languages the future? Do you really want an SPA? Should you replace your C codebase with Rust... or Go? Is Bitcoin worth getting in on? etc etc You will interact with some of the most brilliant people on HN, and most of them are friendly and mean well, but without actual disagreement nothing interesting gets said. ...that wasn't intentionally contrarian.

ekidd 10y ago
> Should you replace your C codebase with Rust... or Go? Handy sanity tip: If your question begins "Should you replace your ____ codebase?", you can automatically answer "No." If you're really starting to hate your codebase, you're allowed to rewrite one module using a new tech stack, but only if that tech stack seems uniquely well suited to the task at hand. Maybe it will suck. Maybe it won't. If it doesn't suck, you can use a bit more of the new technology in other places. This will lower your stress and give you an opportunity to futz around with something promising every now and then. As a strategy, it will probably work best if you occasionally enjoy new technologies, but you're conservative about what you're willing to use in production. It also helps if you have occasional throwaway open source projects for trying out stuff that looks too new for professional use.
- tuxxy 10y ago
  That's a really good measure. Thanks!
lacampbell 10y ago
I've enjoyed arguing (debating?) who with people about OO and FP here. I don't get the downvoting backlash despite going a bit against current fashions (I still like objects and think they make a great foundation for computing in general). The only time I get heavily downvoted for being critical is when I mention a certain programming language - which I happen to like.
- mikekchar 10y ago
  The only time I've ever been heavily down voted here is when I've been blatantly wrong (although it sometimes takes me a while to figure out what was wrong about what I said). I often enjoy your posts, which I find quite insightful at times. I was actually surprised that you found yourself downvoted, so I had a quick peek. In reviewing the posts which appear to have been downvoted recently I have to say that they seem to be unnecessarily inflamatory. Possibly some frustration you feel is escaping. I'm sure when you look at it, it doesn't seem so because your view is filtered by the context of what you meant rather than specifically what you said. Others don't have the ability to distinguish that as easily. Experimenting with other ways of expressing that frustration will probably help. My own personal experience has been that when I consciously tackled this issue, it really helped my professional life as well. I had a pretty bad reputation as being negative early in my career.
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    I think some places and people have a very low tolerance for bluntness. I have quite a high tolerance for it. I actually tone myself down here a lot (partly due to the fact that this is my real name). I enjoy opinionated and provocative communication that others just can't stomach. For example I find the 'rants' of Linus Torvalds completely inoffensive, even when I disagree with them. Colour and passion is a good thing and there's no reason to get too upset about our different preferences in pushing bits around, or shy away from strong language. I guess this doesn't sit well with this new breed of progressive programmer with their codes of conduct and all the rest of it. Oh well. I often enjoy your posts, which I find quite insightful at times. Thanks - I try.
- 10y ago

user837387 10y ago

HN is full of contrarians. Say anything blunt, not rude but blunt, and you will get down-voted to oblivion. And not even that, say something in a polite way that people cannot discredit but still not like and you will get down-voted. I feel like you have to mold yourself to the hive mind if you want your stuff to be up-voted. Not sure if this is really how it is or if it is just me. On the other hand, a lot of times when I say some feel good one liner BS I get dozens of up-votes.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
logfromblammo 10y ago
No, it isn't. That may seem like a flippant joke, but I assure you that my intent is that it only be about 60% that. I am not gratuitously disagreeing here, as it is my sincere opinion that when people here argue for the opposite of what a parent post says, it is more often than not because they genuinely believe that it contains an error of fact or because they wish to express their own, different opinion on the matter. As for up-votes and down-votes, that's a measure of popularity, not correctness. You can be right about everything and still be unpopular.
metaphorm 10y ago
the easiest way to collect upvotes is effluvient praise for whichever silicon valley company is currently the "great golden hope". the easiest way to collect downvotes is to contradict any of PG's implicit or explicit biases. the weight of mass down-voting seems to have improved since sama has taken over and PG is blogging less.
- willstrafach 10y ago
  interestingly, posts such as yours (calling out hivemind / mass up/down-voting) seem to easily get a large amount of upvotes as well.
  - dasil003 10y ago