7 ms·

That's why we need immigration policies that let us keep enough working age people in the country

by tingletech 10y ago

cgore 10y ago
And at the same time give these new young immigrants a basic income so that they don't need to work.
legodt 10y ago
I'm a big dummy, deletia
- ubercow13 10y ago
  I think you've read OP's post as the exact opposite of what was meant
  - legodt 10y ago
    I sure did, I'll see myself out
coredog64 10y ago
Devil's advocate: High trust, homogeneous societies are more likely to have more comprehensive safety nets. As trust diminishes (i.e. partisan Red vs. Blue bickering) and the population fragments into large heterogeneous groups, what is there to keep the safety net in place? Why would a bunch of immigrants from Central America, doing the jobs that Americans don't want to do (and at very low wages) want to see a significant portion of their paychecks siphoned off to pay for the retirement of old white people they've never met, in states they've never visited, and with whom they have very little in common? I think it is more likely that the attempt to try and cover Social Security shortfalls by importing labor will backfire, and that the new citizens will vote against paying more to cover retirement expenses for Boomers and Gen-X.
- hx87 10y ago
  Metadevil's advocate: Immigration to the United States (and to other ex-settler colonies) is fantastically effective at improving the portion of humanity that lives in high-trust societies. Why would a bunch of Central American immigrants contribute to the retirement of old non-Latino white people? The same reason a bunch of Italian immigrants contributed to the retirement of old Germans 80 years ago--the former view the latter as "us".
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  Why would a bunch of immigrants from Central America, doing the jobs that Americans don't want to do (and at very low wages) want to see a significant portion of their paychecks siphoned off to pay for the retirement of old white people they've never met Because they'd like a similar system to take care of them in their old age, same as if they'd been born here? Why are you adding race into it as if the economic factor weren't the primary driver? If participants in the system have access to the benefits, in the future, why should they care about ethnic disparities between the current workforce and the cohort of retired people? Your argument is that people of differing ethnic identity cam't have or perceive common or mutual economic interests.
hoorayimhelping 10y ago
No, that's why we need people not to bet their retirement on a pyramid scheme, which is the point the parent of this whole conversation was making.
- vkou 10y ago
  How exactly can a 45 year old currently making <$25,000/year be expected to finance their retirement, without Social Security?
  - mjevans 10y ago
    By voting Socialist.
  - gnopgnip 10y ago
    myira.gov, saves tax credit, pension from their job, ROTH IRA, increasing their income, having many children
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  It's not a pyramid scheme, it's a countercyclical mechanism. The ratio of retirees to workers is a temporary condition and subject to a variety of remedies.
cloakandswagger 10y ago
Or don't use a massive government sponsored Ponzi scheme for a national retirement plan.
- Frondo 10y ago
  Social security is not a Ponzi scheme. http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2014/sep/24/carlos-curbelo/nod-rick-perry-carlos-curbelo-calls-social-securit/ http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2014/sep/24/car...
  - cloakandswagger 10y ago
    > "A Ponzi scheme is unsustainable because the number of potential investors is eventually exhausted." Which is exactly what is happening now with the lopsided ratio of retirees and new incoming workers. They seem to have marked the assertion as "False" based off of really semantic technicalities
    - Frondo 10y ago
      The supply of workers will never be exhausted. The program will be tweaked, as it has been all along, to ensure it remains fully functions. Read up on it, it's a lot more interesting than the "it's going broke!!" stuff makes it out to be.
    - soundwave106 10y ago
      If there wasn't a fertility decline in the Western world, there wouldn't be a lopsided ratio of retirees to new incoming workers. That future probably wasn't terribly obvious to the politicians who created them (given that most public pension plans were created roughly between World War I and a bit after World War II). In fact, based on some of the literature of the time (eg The Population Bomb -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb -- etc.) I'd say it's more like people were fearing the reverse.
    - cmurf 10y ago
      Oh my a short term mismatch in the system; as if we can't make an adjustment. What would privatization of Social Security employ when the stock market crashes, which happens from time to time, to moderate the negative effects. In fact, moderation isn't good enough, it'd have to completely smooth away any negative effect for it to be even remotely tenable. Oh the old people have to move out of their apartment if they can't afford it now? Too bad? http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/25/millennials-overtake-baby-boomers/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/25/millennials-...

That's why we need immigration policies that let us keep enough working age people in the country

cgore 10y ago

And at the same time give these new young immigrants a basic income so that they don't need to work.

legodt 10y ago

I'm a big dummy, deletia

ubercow13 10y ago
I think you've read OP's post as the exact opposite of what was meant
- legodt 10y ago
  I sure did, I'll see myself out

coredog64 10y ago

Devil's advocate: High trust, homogeneous societies are more likely to have more comprehensive safety nets. As trust diminishes (i.e. partisan Red vs. Blue bickering) and the population fragments into large heterogeneous groups, what is there to keep the safety net in place? Why would a bunch of immigrants from Central America, doing the jobs that Americans don't want to do (and at very low wages) want to see a significant portion of their paychecks siphoned off to pay for the retirement of old white people they've never met, in states they've never visited, and with whom they have very little in common? I think it is more likely that the attempt to try and cover Social Security shortfalls by importing labor will backfire, and that the new citizens will vote against paying more to cover retirement expenses for Boomers and Gen-X.

hx87 10y ago
Metadevil's advocate: Immigration to the United States (and to other ex-settler colonies) is fantastically effective at improving the portion of humanity that lives in high-trust societies. Why would a bunch of Central American immigrants contribute to the retirement of old non-Latino white people? The same reason a bunch of Italian immigrants contributed to the retirement of old Germans 80 years ago--the former view the latter as "us".
anigbrowl 10y ago
Why would a bunch of immigrants from Central America, doing the jobs that Americans don't want to do (and at very low wages) want to see a significant portion of their paychecks siphoned off to pay for the retirement of old white people they've never met Because they'd like a similar system to take care of them in their old age, same as if they'd been born here? Why are you adding race into it as if the economic factor weren't the primary driver? If participants in the system have access to the benefits, in the future, why should they care about ethnic disparities between the current workforce and the cohort of retired people? Your argument is that people of differing ethnic identity cam't have or perceive common or mutual economic interests.

hoorayimhelping 10y ago

No, that's why we need people not to bet their retirement on a pyramid scheme, which is the point the parent of this whole conversation was making.

vkou 10y ago
How exactly can a 45 year old currently making <$25,000/year be expected to finance their retirement, without Social Security?
- mjevans 10y ago
  By voting Socialist.
- gnopgnip 10y ago
  myira.gov, saves tax credit, pension from their job, ROTH IRA, increasing their income, having many children
anigbrowl 10y ago
It's not a pyramid scheme, it's a countercyclical mechanism. The ratio of retirees to workers is a temporary condition and subject to a variety of remedies.

cloakandswagger 10y ago

Or don't use a massive government sponsored Ponzi scheme for a national retirement plan.

Frondo 10y ago
Social security is not a Ponzi scheme. http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2014/sep/24/carlos-curbelo/nod-rick-perry-carlos-curbelo-calls-social-securit/ http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2014/sep/24/car...
- cloakandswagger 10y ago
  > "A Ponzi scheme is unsustainable because the number of potential investors is eventually exhausted." Which is exactly what is happening now with the lopsided ratio of retirees and new incoming workers. They seem to have marked the assertion as "False" based off of really semantic technicalities
  - Frondo 10y ago
    The supply of workers will never be exhausted. The program will be tweaked, as it has been all along, to ensure it remains fully functions. Read up on it, it's a lot more interesting than the "it's going broke!!" stuff makes it out to be.
  - soundwave106 10y ago
    If there wasn't a fertility decline in the Western world, there wouldn't be a lopsided ratio of retirees to new incoming workers. That future probably wasn't terribly obvious to the politicians who created them (given that most public pension plans were created roughly between World War I and a bit after World War II). In fact, based on some of the literature of the time (eg The Population Bomb -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb -- etc.) I'd say it's more like people were fearing the reverse.
  - cmurf 10y ago
    Oh my a short term mismatch in the system; as if we can't make an adjustment. What would privatization of Social Security employ when the stock market crashes, which happens from time to time, to moderate the negative effects. In fact, moderation isn't good enough, it'd have to completely smooth away any negative effect for it to be even remotely tenable. Oh the old people have to move out of their apartment if they can't afford it now? Too bad? http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/25/millennials-overtake-baby-boomers/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/25/millennials-...