11 ms·

Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

155 points by apetresc 10y ago

em3rgent0rdr 10y ago
Finally some resolution to this e-drama!
ejcx 10y ago
Sounds like half the story. The libreboot website says that they left GNU to protest transgender discrimination at the FSF.[0] [0] https://libreboot.org/ https://libreboot.org/
- vog 10y ago
  To make this even more confusing, the FSF disputes that there was harrasment [1] and one Libreboot contributor states that the Libreboot maintainer did not speak on behalf of the whole project [2]. [1] https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement [2] http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    SJW busybody trying to inflate their own PR bubble? Why does it feel like this is becoming more and more prevalent in FOSS projects?
- RubyPinch 10y ago
  more near a 10th of the story Neither side wants to put up any substantial verifiable information about it, so there is nothing to talk about on that front.
  - qntty 10y ago
    It's always interesting how strong of an opinion some people can have about issues that they aren't in a position to comment about...
  - untog 10y ago
    Not sure why this has been downvoted. Neither party in the firing dispute with FSF has gone public, so drawing any conclusions based on the minimal amount of information we have right now is not wise.
  - rebelwebmaster 10y ago
    I don't think there's much else the FSF could say here without treading into legally dubious territory either.
- digler999 10y ago
  sounds like 9/10ths of the story. the transgender person who left sounded very unstable and unprofessional. Not surprising the organization wanted to completely divorce themselves from someone who acts irrationally.
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    I hate to make those assumptions. There is so little information. However, I have a huge respect for the FSF and would be more inclined that they'd let someone go because of practical and professional issues. Letting go of people is not a decision to be taken lightly and originations have to weigh everything. From the e-mail threads, she denounced the entire FSF and spoke for all Libreboot contributors. I do not like this. It makes a lot of broad assumptions about large groups of people that simply cannot be classified together. I think the FSF made the right decision here, and has handled everything as professionally as they could.
    - digler999 10y ago
      http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036... Leah: FSF and GNU can both go fuck themselves. there's no assumption. "leah" is making an ass out of herself and has no business working in that capacity. Thats plenty of information.
      - wtf_fsf 10y ago
        Oh yes because Stallman or Linus has never told anyone to go fuck themselves. Really i think this is pure sexism. It's ok for men to "disrupt" to "call" people out and just be rude douches, if they have merit... But when a feminine person does it all of a sudden they are toxic, and have no merit. Seriously you people are proving Leah's point over and over. The Tech/FOSS community is out of touch with the real world and are trying to lynch someone publicly for daring to say boo to their world view.
  - amyjess 10y ago
    You're confusing two different trans people. One was fired by the FSF, and another, Leah Rowe, claimed her friend's firing was an instance of transphobic discrimination and pulled Libreboot from GNU. The person who got fired from GNU hasn't said a word on the subject, and there's no evidence of her being unstable and unprofessional. Leah Rowe, on the other hand, was indeed acting unstable and unprofessional. The really sad thing was that Rowe's flip-out actually outed her friend, who was stealth, so she wound up hurting a fellow trans person far more than the FSF allegedly did (and due to Rowe's instability, I have difficulty believing her version of why her friend was fired).
- ecaron 10y ago
  Better source for her side of the story is at https://libreboot.org/gnu/ https://libreboot.org/gnu/
  - j_s 10y ago
    I thought that exposing the FSF for their discriminatory practises would redeem me and possibly make that person be my friend again. https://libreboot.org/gnu/#leah-not-a-hero https://libreboot.org/gnu/#leah-not-a-hero Speaks to the motivation for this whole situation.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  Yes, but the transgender person in question didn't want the issue to be brought up, there's no evidence of discrimination, and Leah's actions were incredibly unprofessional, no matter whether there was a decent reason for them initially.
dijit 10y ago
Context: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/54agii/richard_stallman_and_gnu_refused_to_let_libreboot/d80ifar/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/54agii/richard_stall... Original email that sparked the controversy: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036...
- hhjkjhkjhhlkj 10y ago
  Those emails look sent drunk or angry. The first one does not look like it was proof read. I don't always proof read everything, but important ones I don't leave with an obvious typo. Anyhow free software will carry on.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  Thanks so much for this context. There is also an official statement regarding the firing itself: https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement
- DashRattlesnake 10y ago
  Is the reddit user "BaronHK" the same person who posted http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html or just someone quoting it? My sense is he's the latter, but I'm not 100% sure. In any case, the zammit.org statement sounds like it's a more believable reflection of the libreboot community. All the libreboot.org stuff reads too much like one perhaps-toxic person getting up on a soapbox.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    > one perhaps-toxic person getting up on a soapbox. Quite possible, and sadly seems to be happening more and more within the FOSS world.
brudgers 10y ago
My hope is that the project continues irrespective of its relationship to other organizations. It's pretty damn important.
- dijit 10y ago
  I don't necessarily agree. Coreboot is important. Libreboot is nice to have.
  - znpy 10y ago
    This.
  - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
    Is that because there is very little original development occurring in Libreboot (it's my understanding that it's basically Coreboot with some binary blobs removed but not actually replaced).
    - LukeShu 10y ago
      Libreboot and other projects with a similar relationship to upstream suffer from a paradox: It appears that no original development is happening there, because all of the original development is sent upstream. The work done by developers hired to work on Libreboot looks like work done on Coreboot, because Libreboot cooperates with Coreboot and sends their work upstream.
      - fsf-fen-sucks 10y ago
        Exactly the "suits" take credit for all the lower minions work yet again
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
- Slaul 10y ago
  It might be shocking, but I don't necessarily disagree with it. Difficult topic for sure, runs kind of close to eugenics.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
icomefromreddit 10y ago
Good riddance.
- sctb 10y ago
  This account has been posting a lot of unsubstantive comments. Please stop and (re-)read the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
AdmiralAsshat 10y ago
E-drama aside, this is probably for the better, given the following: - The developer has sole commit rights against the repo and hence no further would could be done on it without forking. - The developer's continued trashing of the FSF poisoned the well for any number of people who might have wanted to work on Libreboot, GNU-version or otherwise. The fact is, no one wants to be part of a "contentious" fork. It's a pity that it came to this, because I think the project would likely have received much more support as a GNU package. On the other hand, the lead developer made it very clear that she no longer wished for it to be a GNU package, and she seems to have devoted considerable time and resources (monetary included) to the project. So it goes. I say good on Stallman for not using the GNU's muscle to maintain ownership of the project.
- LukeShu 10y ago
  she seems to have devoted considerable time and resources (monetary included) to the project. For a bit more context: Her full-time job is Minifree, a company she founded that sells computers with Libreboot pre-installed. Minifree has then contracted other developers to work on support for more hardware.
  - gkya 10y ago
    Well reading the front page it seems to mee that all they do is to deblob coreboot and combine it with GRUB and another package.
    - ars 10y ago
      That's the easy part, the hard part is ensuring the computer actually works fully. That's the value added part.
    - kebolio 10y ago
      Libreboot also disables Intel ME and other such unwanted gubbins, which Coreboot doesn't do (or doesn't expose a means to configure it to do so).
- kstrauser 10y ago
maglavaitss 10y ago
All due respect for Leah Rowe and her work on libreboot, but this kind of drama only hurts the OpenSource (regardless of the name you like to use) initiative. Stallman did the right thing I guess.
- ben0x539 10y ago
  I don't think it's fair to lay the blame for the drama at her feet. The FSF could have handled this more professionally from the beginning.
  - gkya 10y ago
    When you get your project into GNU, you practically transfer the ownership and become a maintainer only. Maintainers come and maintainers go, GNU tries to ensure that projects live on when staff changes. GNU projects thus belong to the community and their fate should not be left to the whims of the individuals. In this case though it's nice that the project is detached given it's not all that important and does not worth the burden.
  - DashRattlesnake 10y ago
    > The FSF could have handled this more professionally from the beginning. In what way?
  - josteink 10y ago
    What are you talking about? FSF handled it 100% examplary from the get go. Leah Rowe however was the toxic and crazy drama queen who couldn't keep a civil tone, and even her initial email included the word "fuck". To top it off, she had zero proof for her allegations, and the person she claimed to represent specifically didn't want her to raise those allegations in her name. In the rest of the world, we refer that as slander and libel. She should be happy nobody bothered to sue her. On either end. Given Leah's behavior, I cannot see how on earth the FSF could have acted more level headed, reasonable and professional. Seriously... what did they not do right?
    - 10y ago
debatem1 10y ago
So, is there any truth to the accusations of discrimination and harassment over at FSF? Either way this kind of drama would seem par for the course for people who view software development through political and philosophical lenses, but from a practical perspective it makes her mic drop seem a lot more noble if she's right.
- davexunit 10y ago
  >Either way this kind of drama would seem par for the course for people who view software development through political and philosophical lenses If you are a software developer and don't think about the social impact of what you do then you're being irresponsible.
  - wongarsu 10y ago
    You can even generalize that statement to "If you don't think about the social impact of what you do then you're being irresponsible."
    - davexunit 10y ago
      Yes, even better!
    - iopq 10y ago
      You can further generalize it to "If you don't think then you're not being responsible."
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    Yes and no. Libreboot in this instance seems have crap all to do with the issue, expect being used as leverage for one individual in the dustup.
  - tbrownaw 10y ago
    If you are a software developer and don't think about the social impact of what you do then you're being irresponsible. That seems a bit egotistical. If I'm trying to make some in-house enterprisey thing run twice as fast, chances are there isn't much in the way of societal impact for me to think about. If I'm building a sub-sub-component of some new system, chances are I don't have enough information to even start guessing at the overall effects of the complete system as it will eventually end up being used.
niftich 10y ago
These situations are awkward because any other resolution would've made GNU look like an aggressor. This response acknowledges that GNU isn't a fan of the maintainer's choice, but all other outcomes are sub-par, and they don't want to fork or engage this topic further. The maintainer wins by default.
ben0x539 10y ago
Seems like a good call by rms to drop the matter instead of insisting on a permanent feud over a project that GNU is apparently not very interested in.
jheriko 10y ago
The attitude that comes across in this message... this is the problem with GNU and that whole sector of the OSS community that seems to follow the 'Stallman' way. "you aren't allowed your freedom because <incomprehensible jibberish>" from people who advocate software freedom is a total headfuck
- apetresc 10y ago
  What freedom is being withheld by the FSF in this message? They're granting the maintainer's wishes to a T. The maintainer even explicitly requested that the FSF make a public announcement about it.
  - fsf-fen-sucks 10y ago
    They are publicly passive aggressively attacking Leah, and simply saying they won because FSF can't win and gave up. But lets fire some shots of more drama off at them on the way out the door.
  - jheriko 10y ago
    its the tone and attitude, not the literal interpretation of the statement nor what has happened. 'once your project is under the GNU aegis its there for life' - its fair enough to make that decision, but the result here is not respecting the ideal that very many people have about having a freedom to do what you want with 'your stuff', and what constitutes 'your stuff' if you don't particularly care for ideals of ownership or materialism then this isn't so objectionable. it makes a lot of sense, because then you don't even see the project as 'yours' and doing so is obviously counter to the ideals of the GNU project and FSF. however, the sad practical reality of the world is that most people care a great deal about these kinds of things - its a part of why there is so much proprietary software, and also why many places i have worked forbid GPL dependencies, often in a list of "free software licenses we can't allow in dependencies" along with some statement about why - which is usually about how its 'infectious' nature means that it can't be used without forcing other parts of a product to be made into GPL software - an unacceptable price to pay, because the freedom to keep things private is considered as being so valuable. "you can use our free (as in speech, not beer) software freely, but provided that you sacrifice your freedom of ownership on your own software" this is another one of those kinds of statements i generalised as with "you aren't allowed your freedom because <incomprehensible jibberish>" i don't think its a big leap to consider that sort of statement mind boggling from a philosophical standpoint - you want to advocate freedom with something that curtails freedom? its the same principle with the idea that GNU projects are somehow owned by GNU, and that this is irreversible. again, its trying to advocate the philosophy by doing something that is counter to it. now, i don't consider the maintainer in this case to be in the right. they should have been aware that this is the nature of GNU projects. i also consider her attitude to be so far out of touch with reality and overly-self-entitled that it is a little disturbing... but back to the point, i don't roll in these circles and even i am aware of this philosophy for GNU projects... but aside from that leah should have learned what her decision would mean before making it.
lol_why 10y ago
==== 31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test. This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! If you'd like to love and care for a pet that doesn't have normal human mental capacity, don't create a handicapped human being to be your pet. Get a dog or a parrot. It will appreciate your love, and it will never feel bad for being less capable than normal humans. ==== Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman.org/archives/2016-sep-dec.html#31_October_2016_%28Down%27s_syndrome%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman.... ==== 31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test. This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! According to Wikipedia, Down's syndrome is a combination of many kinds of misfortune. When children with Down's syndrome are born, they are human beings and I wish the best for them. They deserve the best care, which will enable some of them to live independently. However, when we have the chance to assure children are born without Down's syndrome, it's our duty to do so for their sake. ==== Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman.org/archives/2016-sep-dec.html#31_October_2016_(Down's_syndrome) https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman....
fsf-fen-sucks 10y ago
I find it amazing anyone labeling anyone other than Richard Stallman as Toxic. I mean this guy has been a pariah his entire career because of his TOXIC behavior and social views, and somehow we are supposed to believe that Leah is toxic. For not wanting to have to deal with the Douche anymore. However they still want to work on the free software project they started/runs/hostes and makes money to help support other developers and thereby helping core boot. At a time when EVERYONE wants blob-less systems. It's just amazing how you people are willing to become a lynch mob and attack her, but Stallman is god! It's just amazing and shows how toxic the tech/foss community is to people they don't accept. On a side note this is a perfect example of how you cannot trust centralized organizations like FSF. They are no longer under the communities control and instead are most interested in protecting the organization and their jobs, not their values or the rights of others.
gkya 10y ago
This is from http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036... LR> I'm declaring here and now to the whole world that Libreboot is no longer LR> part of the GNU project. I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project LR> deserve to exist. Mistakes are everywhere and are done by everybody. A mistake was done by some people in FSF, the reaction is exaggerated to say the least. Furthermore, it's not clear whether or not the fired person was fired for being a trans. In fact in an email in the thread Stallman says: The dismissal of the staff person was not because of her gender. Her gender now is the same as it was when we hired her. It was not an issue then, and it is not an issue now. Whatever the case is, even though I know null about the project, I can easily say that Leah Rowe, whoever she might be, is apparently toxic for the project. Hopefully, given that it's free software, the other maintainers can get rid of her.
- stronglikedan 10y ago
  > A mistake was done by some people in FSF Probably just one person, and she was fired for it (or, more likely, them).
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    Letting go of people often has to do with a series of mistakes. It's something most companies and non-profits can't do lightly. There is so much potential blowback, like with this case. These decisions usually involve a couple of people. We don't have introspection into this, so we can't be sure. Resist the urge to assume.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  It's very difficult to classify people by e-mails. I worked with so many people who were very nice to me. We'd discuss requirements. I'd even type up timelines and e-mail them docs. Next day, a thread with every manager in the planet saying our team was stonewalling everything, being unhelpful, etc. etc. My boss would come up to my cube and say, "Stop e-mailing these people! Why are you e-mailing them? Pick up the phone and call them!" I hate to rush judgement, but looking at the statements that are out, I am really unhappy with her approach, her statements and her totalism. Just because you don't agree with a policy doesn't mean the FSF shouldn't exist. Pulling your project feels reactionary. I'm guilty of reactionary anger too. I'm human, we're all human. We feel like we've been wronged often by our neighbours or our landlords or police. This might have just been a bad week for her and some rushed decision making. But if she's always like this and doesn't learn from it, then she'll find herself alone in other communities in the future. Just a side note, there was a good video by School of Life on anger. I don't actually agree with all of it. Their premise is weird, but it would actually put her reaction to the FSF in a different light: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coiCkmcKjX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coiCkmcKjX8
pierre_d528 10y ago
Stallman uses his freedom of speech to the fullest! ==== 31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test. This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! If you'd like to love and care for a pet that doesn't have normal human mental capacity, don't create a handicapped human being to be your pet. Get a dog or a parrot. It will appreciate your love, and it will never feel bad for being less capable than normal humans. ==== Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman.org/archives/2016-sep-dec.html#31_October_2016_%28Down%27s_syndrome%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman.... ==== 31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test. This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! According to Wikipedia, Down's syndrome is a combination of many kinds of misfortune. When children with Down's syndrome are born, they are human beings and I wish the best for them. They deserve the best care, which will enable some of them to live independently. However, when we have the chance to assure children are born without Down's syndrome, it's our duty to do so for their sake. ==== Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman.org/archives/2016-sep-dec.html#31_October_2016_(Down's_syndrome) https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman....
- sctb 10y ago
  I don't understand what you've posting here, but when users flag something, please don't create a new account just to post it again. We ban accounts that behave like this on HN.
bridge55 10y ago
(off topic) Since the transgender topic was mentioned, I just was curious what Audrey Tang has been up to lately: http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2016/08/28/2003654031 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2016/08/28/2... She's the Digital Minister of Taiwan now. Well deserved.
Fnoord 10y ago
TL;DR Quote: "Reasons: (1) it had not been a GNU package for very long, (2) she was the developer who had originally made it a GNU package, and (3) there were no major developers who wanted to continue developing Libreboot under GNU auspices."
cptskippy 10y ago
> Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. I always get a chuckle out of his soap boxing. He's not wrong, just amusing.
discordianfish 10y ago
Looking at how one-sided the discussion here but especially on reddit is should be worrying. Not saying it's the case, we all don't know, but if the accusations are right, it's absolutely reasonable to not want to work with these people. You can say all you want about being professional and not having politics influence your technical decisions, but that's easy to say if it's not your life style choices that are discriminated against.
- niftich 10y ago
  This situation is subject to information asymetry, and, as with some other conflicts, reduces down to a question of trust [1]. Half a year ago, the question of the Tor Project and accusations against Appelbaum formed a situation that also caused unrelated third-parties to evaluate who they trust more, which, given the gravity and nature of the the accusations, was an extremely contentious exercise. And in that case, the accusations, if truthful, came directly from victims. In this case, I don't think it's quite a fair ask to unilaterally imply the existence of a troubling conflict, taking a moral position in the name of a different allegedly aggrieved party, force people to pick a side, then punish them for their choice. It seems many other people feel the same way, which they express in varying tones. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173742#12174545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173742#12174545
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  >but if the accusations are right, it's absolutely reasonable to not want to work with these people. At this point, that's a big if. In any case, I do a lot of gaming, so my perspective may be warped here, but I would blame Reddit's one-sidedness on KotakuInAction/GamerGate. After people like Anita Sarkeesian and that particular kerfuffle, anybody involved in that scene (even tangentially) is going to want very strong evidence before believing any claims of persecution (and if you feel like talking Anita and GamerGate themselves, rather than whether or not you think that it contributed to the atmosphere I'm describing, please don't. I don't want another flame war). Claims of persecution that I find rather improbable. The FSF, say what you will about them, have never been the sorts to persecute based on race and gender.
jwtadvice 10y ago
Having seen a number of 'libre' projects disappear or radically change management (sometimes under unlitigated accusations of harassment or misconduct), I hope that important projects to the freedom of computer use continue to exist. Recently TrueCrypt has disappeared, TOR got new management (a bunch of suits), etc. Personal spats aside, these projects are bigger than the organizations and people who sacrifice so much to contribute to them. I might recommend to the FSF and GNU that these sorts of projects need to be given special attention with regard to their continued existence, the happiness and healthiness of the contributors, the transparency of internal activities, and the thwarting of intelligence/infiltration activity. The continued, healthy existence of free software depends not only on the code but on the institutions and the people who provide, advertise, decide and distribute that code.
- fsf-fen-sucks 10y ago
  Too late, you assume the FSF isn't just one of the many pawns used to thwart the free libre projects. Perhaps we shouldn't be supporting the FSF anymore if they aren't supporting what needs to be done because they are now a bunch of suits.
yuhong 10y ago
Personally I think the FSF ideology taken too far is pretty ridiculous anyway.
diaz 10y ago
I'm aware of the original problem and was reading before about it and even if this was all handled very badly publicly by some sides at least I read this email and all that is there is perfectly reasonable, is written in a good tone and leads to an acceptable conclusion. Stallman did what he could with this decision to stop the e-drama. I'm all happier for it. Afterwards I read the comments here, people saying that Minifree is actually her job, which I find amazing because it provides things I care about and I want to see it growing up. Finnaly I clicked on the link someone posted - https://libreboot.org/gnu/#leah-not-a-hero https://libreboot.org/gnu/#leah-not-a-hero - and got surprised and kinda annoyed ( I may even say it pissed me off, when usually nothing I read on the interwebs provokes those kind of feelings in me ) by the fixed overlay currently there on the page: "It took the GNU project 4 months to finally honour Libreboot's decisions, but on 5 January 2017, RMS formally acknowledged it - his reasoning is flawed. They should have immediately honoured Libreboot's decision to leave GNU, but instead they arrogantly resisted it for months, and the only reason they gave up was because they realized that all of Libreboot's core developers were OK with leaving GNU and still preferred to work with Leah Rowe. This page explains why no project should ever join GNU." This is just so bad and putting more wood to the fire for no reason at all than e-drama. I was hoping people were a little more grown up, but as usual I got disappointed.

155 points by apetresc 10y ago

Finally some resolution to this e-drama!

ejcx 10y ago

Sounds like half the story. The libreboot website says that they left GNU to protest transgender discrimination at the FSF.[0] [0] https://libreboot.org/ https://libreboot.org/

vog 10y ago
To make this even more confusing, the FSF disputes that there was harrasment [1] and one Libreboot contributor states that the Libreboot maintainer did not speak on behalf of the whole project [2]. [1] https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement [2] http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html
- digi_owl 10y ago
  SJW busybody trying to inflate their own PR bubble? Why does it feel like this is becoming more and more prevalent in FOSS projects?
RubyPinch 10y ago
more near a 10th of the story Neither side wants to put up any substantial verifiable information about it, so there is nothing to talk about on that front.
- qntty 10y ago
  It's always interesting how strong of an opinion some people can have about issues that they aren't in a position to comment about...
- untog 10y ago
  Not sure why this has been downvoted. Neither party in the firing dispute with FSF has gone public, so drawing any conclusions based on the minimal amount of information we have right now is not wise.
- rebelwebmaster 10y ago
  I don't think there's much else the FSF could say here without treading into legally dubious territory either.
digler999 10y ago
sounds like 9/10ths of the story. the transgender person who left sounded very unstable and unprofessional. Not surprising the organization wanted to completely divorce themselves from someone who acts irrationally.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  I hate to make those assumptions. There is so little information. However, I have a huge respect for the FSF and would be more inclined that they'd let someone go because of practical and professional issues. Letting go of people is not a decision to be taken lightly and originations have to weigh everything. From the e-mail threads, she denounced the entire FSF and spoke for all Libreboot contributors. I do not like this. It makes a lot of broad assumptions about large groups of people that simply cannot be classified together. I think the FSF made the right decision here, and has handled everything as professionally as they could.
  - digler999 10y ago
    http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036... Leah: FSF and GNU can both go fuck themselves. there's no assumption. "leah" is making an ass out of herself and has no business working in that capacity. Thats plenty of information.
    - wtf_fsf 10y ago
      Oh yes because Stallman or Linus has never told anyone to go fuck themselves. Really i think this is pure sexism. It's ok for men to "disrupt" to "call" people out and just be rude douches, if they have merit... But when a feminine person does it all of a sudden they are toxic, and have no merit. Seriously you people are proving Leah's point over and over. The Tech/FOSS community is out of touch with the real world and are trying to lynch someone publicly for daring to say boo to their world view.
- amyjess 10y ago
  You're confusing two different trans people. One was fired by the FSF, and another, Leah Rowe, claimed her friend's firing was an instance of transphobic discrimination and pulled Libreboot from GNU. The person who got fired from GNU hasn't said a word on the subject, and there's no evidence of her being unstable and unprofessional. Leah Rowe, on the other hand, was indeed acting unstable and unprofessional. The really sad thing was that Rowe's flip-out actually outed her friend, who was stealth, so she wound up hurting a fellow trans person far more than the FSF allegedly did (and due to Rowe's instability, I have difficulty believing her version of why her friend was fired).
ecaron 10y ago
Better source for her side of the story is at https://libreboot.org/gnu/ https://libreboot.org/gnu/
- j_s 10y ago
  I thought that exposing the FSF for their discriminatory practises would redeem me and possibly make that person be my friend again. https://libreboot.org/gnu/#leah-not-a-hero https://libreboot.org/gnu/#leah-not-a-hero Speaks to the motivation for this whole situation.
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Yes, but the transgender person in question didn't want the issue to be brought up, there's no evidence of discrimination, and Leah's actions were incredibly unprofessional, no matter whether there was a decent reason for them initially.

dijit 10y ago

Context: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/54agii/richard_stallman_and_gnu_refused_to_let_libreboot/d80ifar/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/54agii/richard_stall... Original email that sparked the controversy: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036...

hhjkjhkjhhlkj 10y ago
Those emails look sent drunk or angry. The first one does not look like it was proof read. I don't always proof read everything, but important ones I don't leave with an obvious typo. Anyhow free software will carry on.
djsumdog 10y ago
Thanks so much for this context. There is also an official statement regarding the firing itself: https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement
DashRattlesnake 10y ago
Is the reddit user "BaronHK" the same person who posted http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html or just someone quoting it? My sense is he's the latter, but I'm not 100% sure. In any case, the zammit.org statement sounds like it's a more believable reflection of the libreboot community. All the libreboot.org stuff reads too much like one perhaps-toxic person getting up on a soapbox.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  > one perhaps-toxic person getting up on a soapbox. Quite possible, and sadly seems to be happening more and more within the FOSS world.

brudgers 10y ago

My hope is that the project continues irrespective of its relationship to other organizations. It's pretty damn important.

dijit 10y ago
I don't necessarily agree. Coreboot is important. Libreboot is nice to have.
- znpy 10y ago
  This.
- DashRattlesnake 10y ago
  Is that because there is very little original development occurring in Libreboot (it's my understanding that it's basically Coreboot with some binary blobs removed but not actually replaced).
  - LukeShu 10y ago
    Libreboot and other projects with a similar relationship to upstream suffer from a paradox: It appears that no original development is happening there, because all of the original development is sent upstream. The work done by developers hired to work on Libreboot looks like work done on Coreboot, because Libreboot cooperates with Coreboot and sends their work upstream.
    - fsf-fen-sucks 10y ago
      Exactly the "suits" take credit for all the lower minions work yet again

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Slaul 10y ago
It might be shocking, but I don't necessarily disagree with it. Difficult topic for sure, runs kind of close to eugenics.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

icomefromreddit 10y ago

Good riddance.

sctb 10y ago
This account has been posting a lot of unsubstantive comments. Please stop and (re-)read the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

AdmiralAsshat 10y ago

E-drama aside, this is probably for the better, given the following: - The developer has sole commit rights against the repo and hence no further would could be done on it without forking. - The developer's continued trashing of the FSF poisoned the well for any number of people who might have wanted to work on Libreboot, GNU-version or otherwise. The fact is, no one wants to be part of a "contentious" fork. It's a pity that it came to this, because I think the project would likely have received much more support as a GNU package. On the other hand, the lead developer made it very clear that she no longer wished for it to be a GNU package, and she seems to have devoted considerable time and resources (monetary included) to the project. So it goes. I say good on Stallman for not using the GNU's muscle to maintain ownership of the project.

LukeShu 10y ago
she seems to have devoted considerable time and resources (monetary included) to the project. For a bit more context: Her full-time job is Minifree, a company she founded that sells computers with Libreboot pre-installed. Minifree has then contracted other developers to work on support for more hardware.
- gkya 10y ago
  Well reading the front page it seems to mee that all they do is to deblob coreboot and combine it with GRUB and another package.
  - ars 10y ago
    That's the easy part, the hard part is ensuring the computer actually works fully. That's the value added part.
  - kebolio 10y ago
    Libreboot also disables Intel ME and other such unwanted gubbins, which Coreboot doesn't do (or doesn't expose a means to configure it to do so).
kstrauser 10y ago

maglavaitss 10y ago

All due respect for Leah Rowe and her work on libreboot, but this kind of drama only hurts the OpenSource (regardless of the name you like to use) initiative. Stallman did the right thing I guess.

ben0x539 10y ago
I don't think it's fair to lay the blame for the drama at her feet. The FSF could have handled this more professionally from the beginning.
- gkya 10y ago
  When you get your project into GNU, you practically transfer the ownership and become a maintainer only. Maintainers come and maintainers go, GNU tries to ensure that projects live on when staff changes. GNU projects thus belong to the community and their fate should not be left to the whims of the individuals. In this case though it's nice that the project is detached given it's not all that important and does not worth the burden.
- DashRattlesnake 10y ago
  > The FSF could have handled this more professionally from the beginning. In what way?
- josteink 10y ago
  What are you talking about? FSF handled it 100% examplary from the get go. Leah Rowe however was the toxic and crazy drama queen who couldn't keep a civil tone, and even her initial email included the word "fuck". To top it off, she had zero proof for her allegations, and the person she claimed to represent specifically didn't want her to raise those allegations in her name. In the rest of the world, we refer that as slander and libel. She should be happy nobody bothered to sue her. On either end. Given Leah's behavior, I cannot see how on earth the FSF could have acted more level headed, reasonable and professional. Seriously... what did they not do right?
  - 10y ago

debatem1 10y ago

So, is there any truth to the accusations of discrimination and harassment over at FSF? Either way this kind of drama would seem par for the course for people who view software development through political and philosophical lenses, but from a practical perspective it makes her mic drop seem a lot more noble if she's right.

davexunit 10y ago
>Either way this kind of drama would seem par for the course for people who view software development through political and philosophical lenses If you are a software developer and don't think about the social impact of what you do then you're being irresponsible.
- wongarsu 10y ago
  You can even generalize that statement to "If you don't think about the social impact of what you do then you're being irresponsible."
  - davexunit 10y ago
    Yes, even better!
  - iopq 10y ago
    You can further generalize it to "If you don't think then you're not being responsible."
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Yes and no. Libreboot in this instance seems have crap all to do with the issue, expect being used as leverage for one individual in the dustup.
- tbrownaw 10y ago
  If you are a software developer and don't think about the social impact of what you do then you're being irresponsible. That seems a bit egotistical. If I'm trying to make some in-house enterprisey thing run twice as fast, chances are there isn't much in the way of societal impact for me to think about. If I'm building a sub-sub-component of some new system, chances are I don't have enough information to even start guessing at the overall effects of the complete system as it will eventually end up being used.

niftich 10y ago

These situations are awkward because any other resolution would've made GNU look like an aggressor. This response acknowledges that GNU isn't a fan of the maintainer's choice, but all other outcomes are sub-par, and they don't want to fork or engage this topic further. The maintainer wins by default.

ben0x539 10y ago

Seems like a good call by rms to drop the matter instead of insisting on a permanent feud over a project that GNU is apparently not very interested in.

jheriko 10y ago

The attitude that comes across in this message... this is the problem with GNU and that whole sector of the OSS community that seems to follow the 'Stallman' way. "you aren't allowed your freedom because <incomprehensible jibberish>" from people who advocate software freedom is a total headfuck

apetresc 10y ago
What freedom is being withheld by the FSF in this message? They're granting the maintainer's wishes to a T. The maintainer even explicitly requested that the FSF make a public announcement about it.
- fsf-fen-sucks 10y ago
  They are publicly passive aggressively attacking Leah, and simply saying they won because FSF can't win and gave up. But lets fire some shots of more drama off at them on the way out the door.
- jheriko 10y ago
  its the tone and attitude, not the literal interpretation of the statement nor what has happened. 'once your project is under the GNU aegis its there for life' - its fair enough to make that decision, but the result here is not respecting the ideal that very many people have about having a freedom to do what you want with 'your stuff', and what constitutes 'your stuff' if you don't particularly care for ideals of ownership or materialism then this isn't so objectionable. it makes a lot of sense, because then you don't even see the project as 'yours' and doing so is obviously counter to the ideals of the GNU project and FSF. however, the sad practical reality of the world is that most people care a great deal about these kinds of things - its a part of why there is so much proprietary software, and also why many places i have worked forbid GPL dependencies, often in a list of "free software licenses we can't allow in dependencies" along with some statement about why - which is usually about how its 'infectious' nature means that it can't be used without forcing other parts of a product to be made into GPL software - an unacceptable price to pay, because the freedom to keep things private is considered as being so valuable. "you can use our free (as in speech, not beer) software freely, but provided that you sacrifice your freedom of ownership on your own software" this is another one of those kinds of statements i generalised as with "you aren't allowed your freedom because <incomprehensible jibberish>" i don't think its a big leap to consider that sort of statement mind boggling from a philosophical standpoint - you want to advocate freedom with something that curtails freedom? its the same principle with the idea that GNU projects are somehow owned by GNU, and that this is irreversible. again, its trying to advocate the philosophy by doing something that is counter to it. now, i don't consider the maintainer in this case to be in the right. they should have been aware that this is the nature of GNU projects. i also consider her attitude to be so far out of touch with reality and overly-self-entitled that it is a little disturbing... but back to the point, i don't roll in these circles and even i am aware of this philosophy for GNU projects... but aside from that leah should have learned what her decision would mean before making it.

lol_why 10y ago

==== 31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test. This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! If you'd like to love and care for a pet that doesn't have normal human mental capacity, don't create a handicapped human being to be your pet. Get a dog or a parrot. It will appreciate your love, and it will never feel bad for being less capable than normal humans. ==== Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman.org/archives/2016-sep-dec.html#31_October_2016_%28Down%27s_syndrome%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman.... ==== 31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test. This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! According to Wikipedia, Down's syndrome is a combination of many kinds of misfortune. When children with Down's syndrome are born, they are human beings and I wish the best for them. They deserve the best care, which will enable some of them to live independently. However, when we have the chance to assure children are born without Down's syndrome, it's our duty to do so for their sake. ==== Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman.org/archives/2016-sep-dec.html#31_October_2016_(Down's_syndrome) https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman....

fsf-fen-sucks 10y ago

I find it amazing anyone labeling anyone other than Richard Stallman as Toxic. I mean this guy has been a pariah his entire career because of his TOXIC behavior and social views, and somehow we are supposed to believe that Leah is toxic. For not wanting to have to deal with the Douche anymore. However they still want to work on the free software project they started/runs/hostes and makes money to help support other developers and thereby helping core boot. At a time when EVERYONE wants blob-less systems. It's just amazing how you people are willing to become a lynch mob and attack her, but Stallman is god! It's just amazing and shows how toxic the tech/foss community is to people they don't accept. On a side note this is a perfect example of how you cannot trust centralized organizations like FSF. They are no longer under the communities control and instead are most interested in protecting the organization and their jobs, not their values or the rights of others.

gkya 10y ago

This is from http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036... LR> I'm declaring here and now to the whole world that Libreboot is no longer LR> part of the GNU project. I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project LR> deserve to exist. Mistakes are everywhere and are done by everybody. A mistake was done by some people in FSF, the reaction is exaggerated to say the least. Furthermore, it's not clear whether or not the fired person was fired for being a trans. In fact in an email in the thread Stallman says: The dismissal of the staff person was not because of her gender. Her gender now is the same as it was when we hired her. It was not an issue then, and it is not an issue now. Whatever the case is, even though I know null about the project, I can easily say that Leah Rowe, whoever she might be, is apparently toxic for the project. Hopefully, given that it's free software, the other maintainers can get rid of her.

stronglikedan 10y ago
> A mistake was done by some people in FSF Probably just one person, and she was fired for it (or, more likely, them).
- djsumdog 10y ago
  Letting go of people often has to do with a series of mistakes. It's something most companies and non-profits can't do lightly. There is so much potential blowback, like with this case. These decisions usually involve a couple of people. We don't have introspection into this, so we can't be sure. Resist the urge to assume.
djsumdog 10y ago
It's very difficult to classify people by e-mails. I worked with so many people who were very nice to me. We'd discuss requirements. I'd even type up timelines and e-mail them docs. Next day, a thread with every manager in the planet saying our team was stonewalling everything, being unhelpful, etc. etc. My boss would come up to my cube and say, "Stop e-mailing these people! Why are you e-mailing them? Pick up the phone and call them!" I hate to rush judgement, but looking at the statements that are out, I am really unhappy with her approach, her statements and her totalism. Just because you don't agree with a policy doesn't mean the FSF shouldn't exist. Pulling your project feels reactionary. I'm guilty of reactionary anger too. I'm human, we're all human. We feel like we've been wronged often by our neighbours or our landlords or police. This might have just been a bad week for her and some rushed decision making. But if she's always like this and doesn't learn from it, then she'll find herself alone in other communities in the future. Just a side note, there was a good video by School of Life on anger. I don't actually agree with all of it. Their premise is weird, but it would actually put her reaction to the FSF in a different light: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coiCkmcKjX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coiCkmcKjX8

pierre_d528 10y ago

Stallman uses his freedom of speech to the fullest! ==== 31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test. This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! If you'd like to love and care for a pet that doesn't have normal human mental capacity, don't create a handicapped human being to be your pet. Get a dog or a parrot. It will appreciate your love, and it will never feel bad for being less capable than normal humans. ==== Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman.org/archives/2016-sep-dec.html#31_October_2016_%28Down%27s_syndrome%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman.... ==== 31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test. This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! According to Wikipedia, Down's syndrome is a combination of many kinds of misfortune. When children with Down's syndrome are born, they are human beings and I wish the best for them. They deserve the best care, which will enable some of them to live independently. However, when we have the chance to assure children are born without Down's syndrome, it's our duty to do so for their sake. ==== Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman.org/archives/2016-sep-dec.html#31_October_2016_(Down's_syndrome) https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman....

sctb 10y ago
I don't understand what you've posting here, but when users flag something, please don't create a new account just to post it again. We ban accounts that behave like this on HN.

bridge55 10y ago

(off topic) Since the transgender topic was mentioned, I just was curious what Audrey Tang has been up to lately: http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2016/08/28/2003654031 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2016/08/28/2... She's the Digital Minister of Taiwan now. Well deserved.

Fnoord 10y ago

TL;DR Quote: "Reasons: (1) it had not been a GNU package for very long, (2) she was the developer who had originally made it a GNU package, and (3) there were no major developers who wanted to continue developing Libreboot under GNU auspices."

cptskippy 10y ago

> Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. I always get a chuckle out of his soap boxing. He's not wrong, just amusing.

discordianfish 10y ago

Looking at how one-sided the discussion here but especially on reddit is should be worrying. Not saying it's the case, we all don't know, but if the accusations are right, it's absolutely reasonable to not want to work with these people. You can say all you want about being professional and not having politics influence your technical decisions, but that's easy to say if it's not your life style choices that are discriminated against.

niftich 10y ago
This situation is subject to information asymetry, and, as with some other conflicts, reduces down to a question of trust [1]. Half a year ago, the question of the Tor Project and accusations against Appelbaum formed a situation that also caused unrelated third-parties to evaluate who they trust more, which, given the gravity and nature of the the accusations, was an extremely contentious exercise. And in that case, the accusations, if truthful, came directly from victims. In this case, I don't think it's quite a fair ask to unilaterally imply the existence of a troubling conflict, taking a moral position in the name of a different allegedly aggrieved party, force people to pick a side, then punish them for their choice. It seems many other people feel the same way, which they express in varying tones. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173742#12174545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173742#12174545
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
>but if the accusations are right, it's absolutely reasonable to not want to work with these people. At this point, that's a big if. In any case, I do a lot of gaming, so my perspective may be warped here, but I would blame Reddit's one-sidedness on KotakuInAction/GamerGate. After people like Anita Sarkeesian and that particular kerfuffle, anybody involved in that scene (even tangentially) is going to want very strong evidence before believing any claims of persecution (and if you feel like talking Anita and GamerGate themselves, rather than whether or not you think that it contributed to the atmosphere I'm describing, please don't. I don't want another flame war). Claims of persecution that I find rather improbable. The FSF, say what you will about them, have never been the sorts to persecute based on race and gender.

jwtadvice 10y ago

Having seen a number of 'libre' projects disappear or radically change management (sometimes under unlitigated accusations of harassment or misconduct), I hope that important projects to the freedom of computer use continue to exist. Recently TrueCrypt has disappeared, TOR got new management (a bunch of suits), etc. Personal spats aside, these projects are bigger than the organizations and people who sacrifice so much to contribute to them. I might recommend to the FSF and GNU that these sorts of projects need to be given special attention with regard to their continued existence, the happiness and healthiness of the contributors, the transparency of internal activities, and the thwarting of intelligence/infiltration activity. The continued, healthy existence of free software depends not only on the code but on the institutions and the people who provide, advertise, decide and distribute that code.

fsf-fen-sucks 10y ago
Too late, you assume the FSF isn't just one of the many pawns used to thwart the free libre projects. Perhaps we shouldn't be supporting the FSF anymore if they aren't supporting what needs to be done because they are now a bunch of suits.

yuhong 10y ago

Personally I think the FSF ideology taken too far is pretty ridiculous anyway.

diaz 10y ago

I'm aware of the original problem and was reading before about it and even if this was all handled very badly publicly by some sides at least I read this email and all that is there is perfectly reasonable, is written in a good tone and leads to an acceptable conclusion. Stallman did what he could with this decision to stop the e-drama. I'm all happier for it. Afterwards I read the comments here, people saying that Minifree is actually her job, which I find amazing because it provides things I care about and I want to see it growing up. Finnaly I clicked on the link someone posted - https://libreboot.org/gnu/#leah-not-a-hero https://libreboot.org/gnu/#leah-not-a-hero - and got surprised and kinda annoyed ( I may even say it pissed me off, when usually nothing I read on the interwebs provokes those kind of feelings in me ) by the fixed overlay currently there on the page: "It took the GNU project 4 months to finally honour Libreboot's decisions, but on 5 January 2017, RMS formally acknowledged it - his reasoning is flawed. They should have immediately honoured Libreboot's decision to leave GNU, but instead they arrogantly resisted it for months, and the only reason they gave up was because they realized that all of Libreboot's core developers were OK with leaving GNU and still preferred to work with Leah Rowe. This page explains why no project should ever join GNU." This is just so bad and putting more wood to the fire for no reason at all than e-drama. I was hoping people were a little more grown up, but as usual I got disappointed.