3 ms·

Maybe it does not use the same opening style when it plays against a version of itself. It would be very interesting to have pro-players comment on published r

by ogrisel 10y ago

Maybe it does not use the same opening style when it plays against a version of itself. It would be very interesting to have pro-players comment on published records of alphago self-play. Maybe alphago has discovered a new balance between black and white (that is a new optimal value of the komi) but when playing with the human defined of the value of the komi its optimal style is also different than what it would be otherwise.

Radim 10y ago
You mean, like these three AlphaGo self-play games from September? ;) https://deepmind.com/research/alphago/alphago-games-english/ https://deepmind.com/research/alphago/alphago-games-english/ (analysis by Gu Li and Zhou Ruiyang, two top pros; standard komi)
- hyperpape 10y ago
  Note that these games look much more human than the ones dfan was describing. There are surprising ideas, but they are still much more normal.
  - Radim 10y ago
    I don't know about that. I'm a mere 1 dan, but I fail to see this marked "difference in normality". What specifically looks "much less human" to you in these newer games?
    - hyperpape 10y ago
      It's certainly a point of contention, but I think it's the general tenor of comments by other players. Though in hindsight, I wouldn't call it inhuman per se. Humans do play strange moves. It's just a big deviation from pro orthodoxy. In this games described here, the floating reduction of the wall looks very odd to me: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13929&p=215550&hilit=dfan#p215550 http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13929&p=21.... I also thought the first game against kiss88 featured a lot of very unorthodox moves: the double tenuki in the top right and the shoulder hit against the 44 + knight's move in the lower left especially seemed novel to me. The two space extension from the 34 point is also uncommon, but less surprising. Another move that didn't seem familiar to me was the shoulder hit and large knight's reduction in the lower right, but that may just be a tactical variation that's unfamiliar. P.S. I'm only 3k AGA, 4k OGS, so take my personal opinion with a grain of salt! I do think I have a decent feeling for what other people are thinking. Ke Jie made a comment about no human having scratched the surface of go.
      - Radim 10y ago
        Agreed, AlphaGo's moves are definitely unorthodox. And yes, humans with their "narrative" style of playing and "intuition" can barely scratch the surface of reading-heavy perfect-information zero-sum games like Go. No contention there. But the question was whether these Master games look less human than the previously published self-play games by AlphaGo. And I just don't see it. The first and third self-play games in particular look crazier (to me) than anything I've seen in this Master collection. But again, just a measly 1d amateur commenting on unworldly 9p vs ?11?p battles :) People at my level can barely glimpse the tip of the iceberg.

by ogrisel 10y ago

Radim 10y ago

You mean, like these three AlphaGo self-play games from September? ;) https://deepmind.com/research/alphago/alphago-games-english/ https://deepmind.com/research/alphago/alphago-games-english/ (analysis by Gu Li and Zhou Ruiyang, two top pros; standard komi)

hyperpape 10y ago
Note that these games look much more human than the ones dfan was describing. There are surprising ideas, but they are still much more normal.
- Radim 10y ago
  I don't know about that. I'm a mere 1 dan, but I fail to see this marked "difference in normality". What specifically looks "much less human" to you in these newer games?
  - hyperpape 10y ago
    It's certainly a point of contention, but I think it's the general tenor of comments by other players. Though in hindsight, I wouldn't call it inhuman per se. Humans do play strange moves. It's just a big deviation from pro orthodoxy. In this games described here, the floating reduction of the wall looks very odd to me: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13929&p=215550&hilit=dfan#p215550 http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13929&p=21.... I also thought the first game against kiss88 featured a lot of very unorthodox moves: the double tenuki in the top right and the shoulder hit against the 44 + knight's move in the lower left especially seemed novel to me. The two space extension from the 34 point is also uncommon, but less surprising. Another move that didn't seem familiar to me was the shoulder hit and large knight's reduction in the lower right, but that may just be a tactical variation that's unfamiliar. P.S. I'm only 3k AGA, 4k OGS, so take my personal opinion with a grain of salt! I do think I have a decent feeling for what other people are thinking. Ke Jie made a comment about no human having scratched the surface of go.
    - Radim 10y ago
      Agreed, AlphaGo's moves are definitely unorthodox. And yes, humans with their "narrative" style of playing and "intuition" can barely scratch the surface of reading-heavy perfect-information zero-sum games like Go. No contention there. But the question was whether these Master games look less human than the previously published self-play games by AlphaGo. And I just don't see it. The first and third self-play games in particular look crazier (to me) than anything I've seen in this Master collection. But again, just a measly 1d amateur commenting on unworldly 9p vs ?11?p battles :) People at my level can barely glimpse the tip of the iceberg.