10 ms·

Reddit IAMA. An ex Google programmer switched to a job in the lumbering industry

138 points by tfh 16y ago

amichail 16y ago
Are most programmers even capable of this sort of physical work? Also, what happens if you get injured on the job?
- ecuzzillo 16y ago
  Probably most can do something with their hands, even if it doesn't involve lots of strength. The thing about the guy who wrote the book about switching from being some kind of knowledge worker to a motorcycle repairman has circulated here a few times, which is presumably less physically taxing than lumbering.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
    - andrewl 16y ago
      He's referring to the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft." The NY Times had articles about it. Here's one: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24labor-t.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24labor-t.html
  - bmj 16y ago
    Matthew Crawford's book is pretty good, I think. The original essay is here: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-soulcraft http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-sou... One thing to note: Crawford is a motorcycle repairman, but he's still a knowledge worker to some extent. And, of course, the book length treatment of the subject was subsidized by a university.
- gaius 16y ago
  You're human, aren't you? We haven't sat at desks long enough to affect us as species. You've got everything you need to be a hunter-gatherer or a farmer apart from the skills.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    I don't - ignoring that I would have been dead four times without modern medicine by now, I couldn't hunt much without glass. And I don't recall any hunter-gather tribe that had those.
- yason 16y ago
  Are most programmers even capable of this sort of physical work? Muscles grow faster than hacking skills. And if you're used to hacking skills, you probably find a way to do it better and safer. Also, what happens if you get injured on the job? What happens if you subject your body to sitting 100 hours a week in front of a computer for decades?
hackermom 16y ago
Not the first guy who has had thoughts of quitting IT and getting a real job.
- hello_moto 16y ago
  I wonder why is that...
thaumaturgy 16y ago
I have a story to share: I started programming computers when I was very young. Because of the skills I developed, and because of some connections I had, I got a very high paying job in the data processing department of the Livermore School District while I was still a junior in high school. (I was on independent study at the time.) I literally made more money than I knew what to do with, unfortunately. A couple of years later, I had been talking to a girl online, who lived in Florida. We met a few times. I've never been all that good at the relationship thing, so this seemed important to me at the time, so I moved to Florida. Shortly after getting there, I learned Oracle PL/SQL and another language I can't remember any more in the course of a few days to get a job at Ceridian Benefits Services; in time I became one of their lead techs with a path into their software development department. Again, more money than I knew what to do with. After about a year of this though, things weren't working out, and there was a part of me that felt starved. It was the part that enjoyed hiking, enjoyed being outside, enjoyed being fit and in good physical health. I also had a strong feeling that everything up to this point had been too easy for me, that I wasn't getting as much out of life as I wanted to. So I quit. I moved back to California and resolved to spend the next few years starting over, completely from scratch; I wanted to take the hardest possible path through life for the next few years. (Boy, I had no idea what I was in for.) I got into rock climbing, and then got a job as a climbing instructor. I had the opportunity, through my style, personality, will, and determination, to influence people around me. I made a lot of friends, many of whom I'm still friends with. I got to feed the outdoor side of my personality for a while. The job didn't pay much though, and eventually I fled, in debt, to a job in the retail part of the outdoor industry, in another part of the state. During this time I didn't use computers, unless it was as a cash register or inventory system. For a period of a couple of years, I was completely disconnected from the internet, computers, toys, and gadgets. I learned how to fix cars, I chased sheep down the street, I climbed a lot, and I wandered around. I'm back in computers now, obviously. It took me only about a year to catch up to the changes in the industry, and I'm one of the leading consultants in my area now, with a successful business of my own. But, I'm really, really, really glad I took that road. It taught me so much that I couldn't have learned by staying behind a computer desk all day long. It taught me how to relate to people, for one. It taught me how to maintain some balance in my life, and how to pay attention to the needs of my spirit. (My girlfriend, who's reading this over my shoulder -- she's really patient with my need to hear myself talk! -- is reminding me that it's also how I met her, which is probably the best part of all. :-) So my main point, in so much as I have one, is that abandoning your core skill in an area, and putting yourself in over your head for a while, can lead to some really valuable experiences. You don't need to worry about whether or not you'll still be able to get back in later, or re-acquire old skills; they'll come back, in time. Don't worry about that at all.
staunch 16y ago
It sounds like this guy thinks his job at Google was as good as it gets. This is like a musician thinking their job at a marketing agency writing jingles is the best they can hope for. My feeling is he probably gave up too early on finding a way to integrate money making and his passion. Maybe this works best for him though.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
  - lsc 16y ago
    but... I know a few guys who are absolutely awesome programmers; way smarter and way better than I hope to be ever... but some of them are working on things like the google IE toolbar. I mean, I only have an outsiders view of google, but certainly, there are many very bright people working on what look to me like not very interesting problems. (Obviously, there are also people at google working on very interesting problems; Living near Mountain View, I know quite a few people who work at google, and most of them seem to like it quite a lot. I'm just saying, it's possible to be at google and get stuck working on things many of us would, ah, rather not work on. Google also has a very strong, ah, company culture. it's not a place, I think, that I would fit in or do well, even though many of my friends work there.)
    - flatline 16y ago
      Yeah, Google strikes me as first and foremost an advertising agency. They make their revenue from ads, and ads are not really the sexiest thing out there IMO. They do a lot of interesting research and large-scale implementations in the pursuit of advertising revenue but the bottom line is still going to be the bottom line, and other types of work are going to be better for a lot of people.
      - lsc 16y ago
        the largest reason why I don't think I'd fit is that everyone there seems to think that google always does the right things, or at least, acts for the right reasons. The degree to which everyone who works there seems to say that it's perfect implies that there is little tolerance for recognising the bad parts of the company, which I think is quite dangerous to the company (and it would be stressful for me as an employee.) Hell, I say bad things about the company I own. I think examining the downside of the choices you've made in the past and the choices you are making now is extremely important; and I think if you believe that you always do the right thing, you are deceiving yourself.
clistctrl 16y ago
I have this ambition to move into the middle of a forest some where. I'd love to spend my day tending to a garden, and maybe a few animals supporting myself. To live life the way it used to be. At night i'd hack on code again, or actually spend time with my girlfriend (maybe wife?). At least in that case if I worked 70 hours a week, I personally would receive the value from 70 hours of work. Right now I'm just getting fatter, my cloths smell because i'm too tired to do laundry, though I see my girl friend every day I'm too tired to do anything.
- bmj 16y ago
  It is is entirely possible to work in the software industry, on interesting projects, without living this way. I average about 45 hours a week, with no more than 35 from the office. I ride my bike to and from the office, spend most weekends outside either climbing or riding my bike, and spend the warmer evenings with my family in the backyard. Oh, and I just got back from a one month road trip. Certainly, I've put in some long days (this is not limited to sedentary labor--ever talked to a farmer?), but these are almost always offset by flexible schedules and comp time. I suggest, perhaps, if you like programming, that you look for another gig.
  - blackguardx 16y ago
    Where do you climb?
    - bmj 16y ago
      We live in Pittsburgh, so primarily at the New River Gorge and Coopers Rock. We'll take several trip to the Red River Gorge, too, and we just returned from three weeks at Hueco Tanks. Yourself?
      - blackguardx 16y ago
        I currently live in NYC, so I mainly climb at the Gunks. However, I am moving to Boulder in a month after a road trip to Yosemite. I look forward to expanding my crag options. Have you been to Seneca Rocks? I had my first trad experience there. The exposure was awesome.
thefool 16y ago
The only problem I have with this is that he left a job where he had the potential to make a net positive change in the world to one where he is a tool in destroying the environment. Sure personally he feels less obligation, but it just seems like eventually that will catch up with him, i know it would to me... especially for someone who professes to love the outdoors, and then contributes to its destruction. The motivation is a little hypocritical...
- lsc 16y ago
  Trees can be responsibly planted and responsibly harvested, like any other plant. My understanding is that the majority of modern logging consists of harvesting trees that were planted specifically to be harvested later.
- krschultz 16y ago
  I'm not sure if I agree with that assesement. Considering that the lumber industry gets the bulk of their wood from farms and tracts that are continusouly replanted, they aren't cutting down old growth forests like "the old says". Compared to aluminum or steel, wood frame construction is fairly renewable and to be encouraged. Google is creating new products and services that increase demand for energy. Everything they do requires more computers sucking up power, more devices to be made with crazy materials in them etc.
  - thefool 16y ago
    Thats a good point. It'd be interesting to see someone do the calculations to see how the energy levels required for building and running electronics (in addition to the destruction of areas that possess various necessary minerals) compares with the amount of energy required to do stuff manually. The argument about wood as a good renewable building material is a good one, however, not getting the "bulk" and not getting most are two completely different things, and the world really needs to get on a renewable system fast. Also, while in a lot of places you will find reference to there being zero net change in the amount of trees being cut down, the fact of the matter is that a lot of old growth forest is still being destroyed. This reasonable looking article: http://ecology.com/features/paperchase/ http://ecology.com/features/paperchase/, says that 9% of wood for paper is taken from old growth forests. Here is another place that lays it out in a graph: http://www.greenfacts.org/en/forests/figtableboxes/figure-2-9.htm http://www.greenfacts.org/en/forests/figtableboxes/figure-2-.... http://www.greenfacts.org/en/forests/ http://www.greenfacts.org/en/forests/. After reading the IAMA more closely, I think that I was wrong in my initial assessment of him, he is doing it because he want the exercise, and is still participating in more "real" projects on the side in a less stressful setting, which is cool. My real point was that it would be really easy to do something like this, thinking that it would be great, and then realizing some time later that you were part of something that you really didn't like on principle.
joshu 16y ago
Every time I drive this place I fantasize about buying it and restoring/repairing it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/sayre/4366230632/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/sayre/4366230632/
- acgourley 16y ago
  every time I walk by it I imagine fallout-esq nightmares
- jasonlbaptiste 16y ago
  I used to run past that place a lot. During the evening it would often conjure up zombie movie plots.
etaque 16y ago
One friend of mine did the same, here in France: high level degree, but only one year working in front of a desk. He totally switched to a sailing instructor job. As a computer engineer and sailor, that's really appealing me, but my skin wouldn't bear it. I know he's 100% living during the day, I know I'm making mouldy on my chair...
- etaque 16y ago
  Anyway, that's why I'm supporting my job : that mental and physical reboot through sailing every week-end became essential to me. Finding your own weekly brainwasher is a fair compromise !
- jfornear 16y ago
  I can relate 100%. I have a good friend who quit his desk job in finance to go to Marine OCS. He runs around in the woods, climbs on mountains, and sleeps on the ground everyday. This might be dumb, but I feel like he's already done more with his life than I ever will.
zandorg 16y ago
From Python to Monty Python?
- bd 16y ago
  Explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg
haasted 16y ago
Interesting to be able to directly contrast the comments of a Reddit-story with the comments on the same story at HN.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
wglb 16y ago
It felt amazing to leave work with a clear head, not thinking about whatever unfinished business I had left which could prove to be a problem in meeting the deadline. My story is quite the reverse. I grew up on a dryland wheat farm in Montana. Nature has a way of enforcing its own deadlines. There, you are never not aware of the issue facing you, hail, no rain, early fall, short crops. Software deadlines seemed to pale in comparison.
bitwize 16y ago
Making bucks, working outside, getting exercise... fuckin' A!

138 points by tfh 16y ago

amichail 16y ago

Are most programmers even capable of this sort of physical work? Also, what happens if you get injured on the job?

ecuzzillo 16y ago
Probably most can do something with their hands, even if it doesn't involve lots of strength. The thing about the guy who wrote the book about switching from being some kind of knowledge worker to a motorcycle repairman has circulated here a few times, which is presumably less physically taxing than lumbering.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
  - andrewl 16y ago
    He's referring to the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft." The NY Times had articles about it. Here's one: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24labor-t.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24labor-t.html
- bmj 16y ago
  Matthew Crawford's book is pretty good, I think. The original essay is here: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-soulcraft http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-sou... One thing to note: Crawford is a motorcycle repairman, but he's still a knowledge worker to some extent. And, of course, the book length treatment of the subject was subsidized by a university.
gaius 16y ago
You're human, aren't you? We haven't sat at desks long enough to affect us as species. You've got everything you need to be a hunter-gatherer or a farmer apart from the skills.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  I don't - ignoring that I would have been dead four times without modern medicine by now, I couldn't hunt much without glass. And I don't recall any hunter-gather tribe that had those.
yason 16y ago
Are most programmers even capable of this sort of physical work? Muscles grow faster than hacking skills. And if you're used to hacking skills, you probably find a way to do it better and safer. Also, what happens if you get injured on the job? What happens if you subject your body to sitting 100 hours a week in front of a computer for decades?

hackermom 16y ago

Not the first guy who has had thoughts of quitting IT and getting a real job.

hello_moto 16y ago
I wonder why is that...

thaumaturgy 16y ago

I have a story to share: I started programming computers when I was very young. Because of the skills I developed, and because of some connections I had, I got a very high paying job in the data processing department of the Livermore School District while I was still a junior in high school. (I was on independent study at the time.) I literally made more money than I knew what to do with, unfortunately. A couple of years later, I had been talking to a girl online, who lived in Florida. We met a few times. I've never been all that good at the relationship thing, so this seemed important to me at the time, so I moved to Florida. Shortly after getting there, I learned Oracle PL/SQL and another language I can't remember any more in the course of a few days to get a job at Ceridian Benefits Services; in time I became one of their lead techs with a path into their software development department. Again, more money than I knew what to do with. After about a year of this though, things weren't working out, and there was a part of me that felt starved. It was the part that enjoyed hiking, enjoyed being outside, enjoyed being fit and in good physical health. I also had a strong feeling that everything up to this point had been too easy for me, that I wasn't getting as much out of life as I wanted to. So I quit. I moved back to California and resolved to spend the next few years starting over, completely from scratch; I wanted to take the hardest possible path through life for the next few years. (Boy, I had no idea what I was in for.) I got into rock climbing, and then got a job as a climbing instructor. I had the opportunity, through my style, personality, will, and determination, to influence people around me. I made a lot of friends, many of whom I'm still friends with. I got to feed the outdoor side of my personality for a while. The job didn't pay much though, and eventually I fled, in debt, to a job in the retail part of the outdoor industry, in another part of the state. During this time I didn't use computers, unless it was as a cash register or inventory system. For a period of a couple of years, I was completely disconnected from the internet, computers, toys, and gadgets. I learned how to fix cars, I chased sheep down the street, I climbed a lot, and I wandered around. I'm back in computers now, obviously. It took me only about a year to catch up to the changes in the industry, and I'm one of the leading consultants in my area now, with a successful business of my own. But, I'm really, really, really glad I took that road. It taught me so much that I couldn't have learned by staying behind a computer desk all day long. It taught me how to relate to people, for one. It taught me how to maintain some balance in my life, and how to pay attention to the needs of my spirit. (My girlfriend, who's reading this over my shoulder -- she's really patient with my need to hear myself talk! -- is reminding me that it's also how I met her, which is probably the best part of all. :-) So my main point, in so much as I have one, is that abandoning your core skill in an area, and putting yourself in over your head for a while, can lead to some really valuable experiences. You don't need to worry about whether or not you'll still be able to get back in later, or re-acquire old skills; they'll come back, in time. Don't worry about that at all.

staunch 16y ago

It sounds like this guy thinks his job at Google was as good as it gets. This is like a musician thinking their job at a marketing agency writing jingles is the best they can hope for. My feeling is he probably gave up too early on finding a way to integrate money making and his passion. Maybe this works best for him though.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
- lsc 16y ago
  but... I know a few guys who are absolutely awesome programmers; way smarter and way better than I hope to be ever... but some of them are working on things like the google IE toolbar. I mean, I only have an outsiders view of google, but certainly, there are many very bright people working on what look to me like not very interesting problems. (Obviously, there are also people at google working on very interesting problems; Living near Mountain View, I know quite a few people who work at google, and most of them seem to like it quite a lot. I'm just saying, it's possible to be at google and get stuck working on things many of us would, ah, rather not work on. Google also has a very strong, ah, company culture. it's not a place, I think, that I would fit in or do well, even though many of my friends work there.)
  - flatline 16y ago
    Yeah, Google strikes me as first and foremost an advertising agency. They make their revenue from ads, and ads are not really the sexiest thing out there IMO. They do a lot of interesting research and large-scale implementations in the pursuit of advertising revenue but the bottom line is still going to be the bottom line, and other types of work are going to be better for a lot of people.
    - lsc 16y ago
      the largest reason why I don't think I'd fit is that everyone there seems to think that google always does the right things, or at least, acts for the right reasons. The degree to which everyone who works there seems to say that it's perfect implies that there is little tolerance for recognising the bad parts of the company, which I think is quite dangerous to the company (and it would be stressful for me as an employee.) Hell, I say bad things about the company I own. I think examining the downside of the choices you've made in the past and the choices you are making now is extremely important; and I think if you believe that you always do the right thing, you are deceiving yourself.

clistctrl 16y ago

I have this ambition to move into the middle of a forest some where. I'd love to spend my day tending to a garden, and maybe a few animals supporting myself. To live life the way it used to be. At night i'd hack on code again, or actually spend time with my girlfriend (maybe wife?). At least in that case if I worked 70 hours a week, I personally would receive the value from 70 hours of work. Right now I'm just getting fatter, my cloths smell because i'm too tired to do laundry, though I see my girl friend every day I'm too tired to do anything.

bmj 16y ago
It is is entirely possible to work in the software industry, on interesting projects, without living this way. I average about 45 hours a week, with no more than 35 from the office. I ride my bike to and from the office, spend most weekends outside either climbing or riding my bike, and spend the warmer evenings with my family in the backyard. Oh, and I just got back from a one month road trip. Certainly, I've put in some long days (this is not limited to sedentary labor--ever talked to a farmer?), but these are almost always offset by flexible schedules and comp time. I suggest, perhaps, if you like programming, that you look for another gig.
- blackguardx 16y ago
  Where do you climb?
  - bmj 16y ago
    We live in Pittsburgh, so primarily at the New River Gorge and Coopers Rock. We'll take several trip to the Red River Gorge, too, and we just returned from three weeks at Hueco Tanks. Yourself?
    - blackguardx 16y ago
      I currently live in NYC, so I mainly climb at the Gunks. However, I am moving to Boulder in a month after a road trip to Yosemite. I look forward to expanding my crag options. Have you been to Seneca Rocks? I had my first trad experience there. The exposure was awesome.

thefool 16y ago

The only problem I have with this is that he left a job where he had the potential to make a net positive change in the world to one where he is a tool in destroying the environment. Sure personally he feels less obligation, but it just seems like eventually that will catch up with him, i know it would to me... especially for someone who professes to love the outdoors, and then contributes to its destruction. The motivation is a little hypocritical...

lsc 16y ago
Trees can be responsibly planted and responsibly harvested, like any other plant. My understanding is that the majority of modern logging consists of harvesting trees that were planted specifically to be harvested later.
krschultz 16y ago
I'm not sure if I agree with that assesement. Considering that the lumber industry gets the bulk of their wood from farms and tracts that are continusouly replanted, they aren't cutting down old growth forests like "the old says". Compared to aluminum or steel, wood frame construction is fairly renewable and to be encouraged. Google is creating new products and services that increase demand for energy. Everything they do requires more computers sucking up power, more devices to be made with crazy materials in them etc.
- thefool 16y ago
  Thats a good point. It'd be interesting to see someone do the calculations to see how the energy levels required for building and running electronics (in addition to the destruction of areas that possess various necessary minerals) compares with the amount of energy required to do stuff manually. The argument about wood as a good renewable building material is a good one, however, not getting the "bulk" and not getting most are two completely different things, and the world really needs to get on a renewable system fast. Also, while in a lot of places you will find reference to there being zero net change in the amount of trees being cut down, the fact of the matter is that a lot of old growth forest is still being destroyed. This reasonable looking article: http://ecology.com/features/paperchase/ http://ecology.com/features/paperchase/, says that 9% of wood for paper is taken from old growth forests. Here is another place that lays it out in a graph: http://www.greenfacts.org/en/forests/figtableboxes/figure-2-9.htm http://www.greenfacts.org/en/forests/figtableboxes/figure-2-.... http://www.greenfacts.org/en/forests/ http://www.greenfacts.org/en/forests/. After reading the IAMA more closely, I think that I was wrong in my initial assessment of him, he is doing it because he want the exercise, and is still participating in more "real" projects on the side in a less stressful setting, which is cool. My real point was that it would be really easy to do something like this, thinking that it would be great, and then realizing some time later that you were part of something that you really didn't like on principle.

joshu 16y ago

Every time I drive this place I fantasize about buying it and restoring/repairing it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/sayre/4366230632/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/sayre/4366230632/

acgourley 16y ago
every time I walk by it I imagine fallout-esq nightmares
jasonlbaptiste 16y ago
I used to run past that place a lot. During the evening it would often conjure up zombie movie plots.

etaque 16y ago

One friend of mine did the same, here in France: high level degree, but only one year working in front of a desk. He totally switched to a sailing instructor job. As a computer engineer and sailor, that's really appealing me, but my skin wouldn't bear it. I know he's 100% living during the day, I know I'm making mouldy on my chair...

etaque 16y ago
Anyway, that's why I'm supporting my job : that mental and physical reboot through sailing every week-end became essential to me. Finding your own weekly brainwasher is a fair compromise !
jfornear 16y ago
I can relate 100%. I have a good friend who quit his desk job in finance to go to Marine OCS. He runs around in the woods, climbs on mountains, and sleeps on the ground everyday. This might be dumb, but I feel like he's already done more with his life than I ever will.

zandorg 16y ago

From Python to Monty Python?

bd 16y ago
Explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg

haasted 16y ago

Interesting to be able to directly contrast the comments of a Reddit-story with the comments on the same story at HN.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

wglb 16y ago

It felt amazing to leave work with a clear head, not thinking about whatever unfinished business I had left which could prove to be a problem in meeting the deadline. My story is quite the reverse. I grew up on a dryland wheat farm in Montana. Nature has a way of enforcing its own deadlines. There, you are never not aware of the issue facing you, hail, no rain, early fall, short crops. Software deadlines seemed to pale in comparison.

bitwize 16y ago

Making bucks, working outside, getting exercise... fuckin' A!