4 ms·

The birther stuff, in particular, is a great example of nonsense that perpetuates. On a policy level, we were hijacked by the death panel nonsense. Debate the

The birther stuff, in particular, is a great example of nonsense that perpetuates. On a policy level, we were hijacked by the death panel nonsense. Debate the public option and minimum coverage requirements and subsidies - sure - but the death panel stuff is just nonsense designed purely to distort the debate. If you don't get how having to deal with stuff like that at the expense of substantive debate harms our nation, I don't know what to tell you. Why their communications team (and remember his chief speechwriter since 2007 is a guy born in 1981[1]) keeps linking this with video games and iPods (which he certainly does know how to use; it's a bizarre line) has to be some sort of polling data. Cause, on its face, it's asinine. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Favreau_(speechwriter) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Favreau_(speechwriter)

hugh3 16y ago
Actually I kinda think stupid ideas like birtherism are deliberately given air by the Obama operation. I don't mean that in a "conspiracy theory" sense, I just mean that politicians would rather engage loudly with the silliest of their opponents rather than the most sensible. By focusing attention on the few loonies who oppose Obama, Obama attempts to associate opposition to Obama with looniness. If birthers didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent them. As evidence, witness how quickly and reflexively this thread jumped into a discussion of birtherism. Anyway, I guess my point is that would be hypocritical for Obama (or, in all fairness, pretty much any politician out there) to complain about the infantilization of political rhetoric. This, after all, is the man whose favourite rhetorical device is the "There are those who say [something that nobody actually says]" strawman.
- pohl 16y ago
  It's a good theory. I don't quite understand how he managed to get Fox news in on the plot, though.
- ebiester 16y ago
  The birthers are only the easiest example. Look at the health care debate. I am sympathetic to a capitalist-based reform, but the fundamental problem is that even the moderately informed had difficulties following the real issues because the media failed to actually tell people what the public option was! I've heard multiple anecdotes (I know, not a representative sample) where someone "came up with" the public option but didn't explain it with those words, and their friends thought it was a good idea, but the "public option" was "government intervention and death panels." The problem isn't the competing ideas -- the problem is the level of the debate.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    On the other hand it's not like the Democrats were going out of their way to explain what was in the bill either. Instead, they spent most of their time talking about how "reform" is "necessary" (without acknowledging that many types of reform are possible) and even more time demonizing any opposition as either ignorant hicks or shills paid by the insurance industry. You won't find any disagreement from me if you say that the level of political discourse is too low. You will find disagreement if you try to claim that Barack Obama has a genuine desire for it to be higher.
    - tokipin 16y ago
      well, the president had what i think was at least a couple dozen speeches on why it was important, and in many of them he was quite detailed. and the kind of reform that republicans were proposing was in the opposite direction... towards deregulation but as i said elsewhere, when you have one side poisoning the well and otherwise completely pulling shit out of their ass, the other side doesn't have many easy options. the negativity drowned out the actual info also keep in mind Fox is a propaganda network that many people take seriously
  - tokipin 16y ago
    you really couldn't expect anything different considering how all-out the opposition went, combined with the fact that people respond to negative statements easier than positive statements. it's never a good combination for the people trying to Change things i noticed some lessons have been learned, though. you can see this learnination in how the financial reform has played out, with the president full stop calling out the opposition's assertions as false
  - WiseWeasel 16y ago
    To be fair, however, many things sound like "good ideas" until you try and implement them... It's difficult for people to consider all the long-term implications of such a change in health system, and dangerously easy to gloss over what may seem like small minutiae, but ends up meaning the difference between life and death for people. In the end, "public option" is just a set of words that could be used to describe any number of systems ranging from ideal to unbearable, and so it is not of any positive or negative value in itself. The devil is in the details.
patio11 16y ago
I have an alternative theory: Obama is contemptuous of video games and iPods because Obama is contemptuous of video games and iPods. The hip, with-it, I-use-Twitter Obama that so many folks fell in love with? That was the poll-tested messaged-massaged for-marketing-consumption version.
- wanderr 16y ago
  He's married to his blackberry. Not remotely surprising that he's not into i* products.

hugh3 16y ago

Actually I kinda think stupid ideas like birtherism are deliberately given air by the Obama operation. I don't mean that in a "conspiracy theory" sense, I just mean that politicians would rather engage loudly with the silliest of their opponents rather than the most sensible. By focusing attention on the few loonies who oppose Obama, Obama attempts to associate opposition to Obama with looniness. If birthers didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent them. As evidence, witness how quickly and reflexively this thread jumped into a discussion of birtherism. Anyway, I guess my point is that would be hypocritical for Obama (or, in all fairness, pretty much any politician out there) to complain about the infantilization of political rhetoric. This, after all, is the man whose favourite rhetorical device is the "There are those who say [something that nobody actually says]" strawman.

pohl 16y ago
It's a good theory. I don't quite understand how he managed to get Fox news in on the plot, though.
ebiester 16y ago
The birthers are only the easiest example. Look at the health care debate. I am sympathetic to a capitalist-based reform, but the fundamental problem is that even the moderately informed had difficulties following the real issues because the media failed to actually tell people what the public option was! I've heard multiple anecdotes (I know, not a representative sample) where someone "came up with" the public option but didn't explain it with those words, and their friends thought it was a good idea, but the "public option" was "government intervention and death panels." The problem isn't the competing ideas -- the problem is the level of the debate.
- hugh3 16y ago
  On the other hand it's not like the Democrats were going out of their way to explain what was in the bill either. Instead, they spent most of their time talking about how "reform" is "necessary" (without acknowledging that many types of reform are possible) and even more time demonizing any opposition as either ignorant hicks or shills paid by the insurance industry. You won't find any disagreement from me if you say that the level of political discourse is too low. You will find disagreement if you try to claim that Barack Obama has a genuine desire for it to be higher.
  - tokipin 16y ago
    well, the president had what i think was at least a couple dozen speeches on why it was important, and in many of them he was quite detailed. and the kind of reform that republicans were proposing was in the opposite direction... towards deregulation but as i said elsewhere, when you have one side poisoning the well and otherwise completely pulling shit out of their ass, the other side doesn't have many easy options. the negativity drowned out the actual info also keep in mind Fox is a propaganda network that many people take seriously
- tokipin 16y ago
  you really couldn't expect anything different considering how all-out the opposition went, combined with the fact that people respond to negative statements easier than positive statements. it's never a good combination for the people trying to Change things i noticed some lessons have been learned, though. you can see this learnination in how the financial reform has played out, with the president full stop calling out the opposition's assertions as false
- WiseWeasel 16y ago
  To be fair, however, many things sound like "good ideas" until you try and implement them... It's difficult for people to consider all the long-term implications of such a change in health system, and dangerously easy to gloss over what may seem like small minutiae, but ends up meaning the difference between life and death for people. In the end, "public option" is just a set of words that could be used to describe any number of systems ranging from ideal to unbearable, and so it is not of any positive or negative value in itself. The devil is in the details.

patio11 16y ago

I have an alternative theory: Obama is contemptuous of video games and iPods because Obama is contemptuous of video games and iPods. The hip, with-it, I-use-Twitter Obama that so many folks fell in love with? That was the poll-tested messaged-massaged for-marketing-consumption version.

wanderr 16y ago
He's married to his blackberry. Not remotely surprising that he's not into i* products.