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GVR, the PSF and the core dev team overestimated their influence. They still truly believe the majority will come around to Python3. I agree with your sentiment

GVR, the PSF and the core dev team overestimated their influence. They still truly believe the majority will come around to Python3. I agree with your sentiments and balkanization is the right word. Guido won't even read these comments. He thinks it's all some unjust slander and nonsense that will be forgotten in 3 years. :) It is a good time to jump off the Python train in general, and I say that as someone invested in Python who loves it. If possible I'd recommend people reach for Go or Elixir depending on their needs or requirements. I will admit I'm a little shocked how much of a failure Python3 adoption has been. I think if it had been Grumpy from the start it would've been a huge success. This is exactly what people want and Google should be commended for sharing this. Here's to hoping Grumpy takes on a life of its own and is the new de facto Python.

robohamburger 10y ago
Both my workplace and the one big open source project I use homeassistant all use python 3. Do you have any data to backup python 3 adoption being a failure? I know it was certainly painful for many years. As a python 3 user everything seems fine on my end. Though 3 has its own new warts. They are smaller and more forgivable warts for now but its probably not a good sign. I do agree the direction python is heading is not very interesting anymore but that doesn't mean its dead or useless now.
- dx034 10y ago
  We try to use Python 3 at work but have to run Python 2 as well because there are still packages that weren't upgraded and it's too much working re-writing them all for no direct benefit. We also have third party vendors that only support Python 3 in experimental versions, and there not even recent versions (Bloomberg is a great example). I really like Python3 features, but the pain of using them drives me towards using other languages. I hope Julia will be stable and mature enough soon so that I can dump Python all together. I really like Julia, but currently the changes in the languages are too fast and there are constantly incompatibilities with packages that don't update fast enough. But I'm reasonably certain that this will be fixed once they reach 1.0. I'm sure Python is far from dead, but can imagine that Julia has the potential to kill it in many domains.
  - whyrt12 10y ago
    Do you do data science?
    - dx034 10y ago
      Yes, mostly for finance.
      - statsmatscats 10y ago
        What python 3 features are painful and why?
mdaniel 10y ago
> Here's to hoping Grumpy takes on a life of its own and is the new de facto Python. I can appreciate you have that opinion, but I'll be livid if that's true - the last thing in the entire world I want is to do battle with dependencies and the very, very strict/opinionated Go build system. If your idea is that all Py27 is just transpiled into Go and then jettisoned, that's fine, but keeping one foot in each world sounds terrible.
- BuckRogers 10y ago
  Go compiles down to native code (x86, ARM assembly etc). That's what Grumpy code generates as well but it still needs to be maintained in the original Python2 or Go (depending on whatever your original source is). What I'm suggesting is that Python3 is jettisoned and Grumpy takes the forsaken throne that Python left behind. One thing is clear with all these new compilers/runtimes, you want to be writing Python2 syntax because that's where all the action is. I hope Grumpy succeeds and new features are added and becomes it's own ecosystem that plays nicely with Go code. These folks at Google have really done what Guido & Co should've done. This is Python3 as most of us wanted it to be, it's worth rewriting all your code for... but you don't even have to do that. Valid Python2 is Grumpy already. I don't know what else I'd want. It compiles existing Python2 AND offers a legitimate upgrade from CPython at the same time. As far as all of the lost C extensions? You won't need them with the performance that the Go runtime has. That's been the answer all this time, not maintaining C-extension compatibility. They nailed this thing, it's the answer to "what's the future of Python?" that everyone has been wondering for the past 9 years.
  - guitarbill 10y ago
    > you want to be writing Python2 syntax because that's where all the action is. > This is Python3 as most of us wanted it to be. > Valid Python2 is Grumpy already. > It compiles existing Python2 AND offers a legitimate upgrade from CPython at the same time. > As far as all of the lost C extensions? You won't need them None of the statements are true. You seem to be very confused what Grumpy can and can't do, and what the need of actual Python developers are. The only benefit of Grumpy is speed (I don't think go "interop" counts). Now, that's a pretty big benefit for some, but comes with significant drawbacks and probably always will. Even though CPython is only the reference implementation, many clever people have worked to make it faster. Getting rid of the GIL is also very difficult. The easiest way to gain speed is to limit Python to a subset of features and then optimise for that. While this is a fair approach, hailing it as the future of Python is terribly misguided.
est 10y ago
> They still truly believe the majority will come around to Python3. People will upgrade if they make py3 more appealing, something like a 20% speed boost would be nice.
pekk 10y ago
You are upset about Python 3 adoption, so you advise reaching for much less popular Elixir or for brand new Google-specific Grumpy? If insufficient popularity were the problem, those choices wouldn't make any sense.

robohamburger 10y ago

Both my workplace and the one big open source project I use homeassistant all use python 3. Do you have any data to backup python 3 adoption being a failure? I know it was certainly painful for many years. As a python 3 user everything seems fine on my end. Though 3 has its own new warts. They are smaller and more forgivable warts for now but its probably not a good sign. I do agree the direction python is heading is not very interesting anymore but that doesn't mean its dead or useless now.

dx034 10y ago
We try to use Python 3 at work but have to run Python 2 as well because there are still packages that weren't upgraded and it's too much working re-writing them all for no direct benefit. We also have third party vendors that only support Python 3 in experimental versions, and there not even recent versions (Bloomberg is a great example). I really like Python3 features, but the pain of using them drives me towards using other languages. I hope Julia will be stable and mature enough soon so that I can dump Python all together. I really like Julia, but currently the changes in the languages are too fast and there are constantly incompatibilities with packages that don't update fast enough. But I'm reasonably certain that this will be fixed once they reach 1.0. I'm sure Python is far from dead, but can imagine that Julia has the potential to kill it in many domains.
- whyrt12 10y ago
  Do you do data science?
  - dx034 10y ago
    Yes, mostly for finance.
    - statsmatscats 10y ago
      What python 3 features are painful and why?

mdaniel 10y ago

> Here's to hoping Grumpy takes on a life of its own and is the new de facto Python. I can appreciate you have that opinion, but I'll be livid if that's true - the last thing in the entire world I want is to do battle with dependencies and the very, very strict/opinionated Go build system. If your idea is that all Py27 is just transpiled into Go and then jettisoned, that's fine, but keeping one foot in each world sounds terrible.

BuckRogers 10y ago
Go compiles down to native code (x86, ARM assembly etc). That's what Grumpy code generates as well but it still needs to be maintained in the original Python2 or Go (depending on whatever your original source is). What I'm suggesting is that Python3 is jettisoned and Grumpy takes the forsaken throne that Python left behind. One thing is clear with all these new compilers/runtimes, you want to be writing Python2 syntax because that's where all the action is. I hope Grumpy succeeds and new features are added and becomes it's own ecosystem that plays nicely with Go code. These folks at Google have really done what Guido & Co should've done. This is Python3 as most of us wanted it to be, it's worth rewriting all your code for... but you don't even have to do that. Valid Python2 is Grumpy already. I don't know what else I'd want. It compiles existing Python2 AND offers a legitimate upgrade from CPython at the same time. As far as all of the lost C extensions? You won't need them with the performance that the Go runtime has. That's been the answer all this time, not maintaining C-extension compatibility. They nailed this thing, it's the answer to "what's the future of Python?" that everyone has been wondering for the past 9 years.
- guitarbill 10y ago
  > you want to be writing Python2 syntax because that's where all the action is. > This is Python3 as most of us wanted it to be. > Valid Python2 is Grumpy already. > It compiles existing Python2 AND offers a legitimate upgrade from CPython at the same time. > As far as all of the lost C extensions? You won't need them None of the statements are true. You seem to be very confused what Grumpy can and can't do, and what the need of actual Python developers are. The only benefit of Grumpy is speed (I don't think go "interop" counts). Now, that's a pretty big benefit for some, but comes with significant drawbacks and probably always will. Even though CPython is only the reference implementation, many clever people have worked to make it faster. Getting rid of the GIL is also very difficult. The easiest way to gain speed is to limit Python to a subset of features and then optimise for that. While this is a fair approach, hailing it as the future of Python is terribly misguided.

est 10y ago

> They still truly believe the majority will come around to Python3. People will upgrade if they make py3 more appealing, something like a 20% speed boost would be nice.

pekk 10y ago

You are upset about Python 3 adoption, so you advise reaching for much less popular Elixir or for brand new Google-specific Grumpy? If insufficient popularity were the problem, those choices wouldn't make any sense.