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I’m Joining LinkedIn
- hillz 10y agoFirst I thought this was Jim Dale - the amazing narrator of Harry Potter - and was pretty confused.
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- fiatjaf 10y agoLinkedIn is still that company based on sheer spam, right?
- randomsofr 10y agoIs that spam company still on business?
- jesuslop 10y agoSo what
- fiatjaf 10y agoSo Tom Dale is one of the creators of Ember. Now he is joining LinkedIn to work with Ember. I think this is a little sad. I can't stop imagining that he thinks that something like React is better than Ember in all situations, but since he has such high Ember credentials and somehow LinkedIn decided to go with Ember then he feels he must accept that job.
- aosaigh 10y agoHuh? Why would you think that?
- darfs 10y agoI think here we have the "my tooling/programming language is the best, in every situation everytime". I could be wrong. Edit: typos
- citruspi 10y agoYeah, but fiatjaf is saying that Tom Dale (one of the creators of Ember.js) believes that React is better than Ember in every scenario, not the opposite. That's the part that doesn't make sense.
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- darfs 10y agoI think it's about he thinks that Dale believes. And thats based on the opinion that React is the best in everything that Ember could do.. If Dale Said it otherwise, im sorry. Its all about opinions Here :-/
- citruspi 10y agoYeah, but the point is that he's conjecturing and doesn't provide any source. If anything, I'd imagine Tom Dale believes that Ember is better than React in some, if not all, ways given that he's... one of the co-founders. fiatjaf is literally saying[0]: > React cane out after Ember, and conquered the hearts of many many JS developers. Why couldn't Tom Dale be one of them? And it's fine to wonder that, but he states it in the original comment as if it's a definite thing without providing a source. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13325643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13325643
- grzm 10y agoI can't stop imagining that he thinks that something like React is better than Ember in all situations Can you elaborate on this? I'm unfamiliar with Tom Dale and Ember so I'm admittedly ignorant, but it's not clear to me why he would think "something like React is better than Ember in all situations".
- dasil003 10y agoIs there a typo here? Why would he think React is better than Ember? In any case, I think it's most likely that A) they are throwing a boatload of money at him, more than he could probably get anywhere else and B) giving him full autonomy to continue his desired work in a context where he has direct access to a lot of the hairiest problems. Open source work is not known to be the most lucrative, so opportunities like this are very attractive, I really can't fault him for it.
- charlieflowers 10y agoI think what the parent is saying is that the parent likes to play this imaginary story in his head, and in this story, Tom Dale actually thinks React is better but can't work on it because he is known as a core contributor to Ember. Parent is saying React is so clearly better that even Tom Dale knows it. (I'm merely translating ... not stating any opinion of my own here).
- fiatjaf 10y agoClarifying: I was just imagining, I wasn't asserting that the he thinks React is better. I don't see how you don't consider this hypothese. React cane out after Ember, and conquered the hearts of many many JS developers. Why couldn't Tom Dale be one of them?
- andreime 10y agoMaking assumptions like this is a dangerous habit. 1. React and Ember are different things, one is a framework, the other is not. 2. Ember 2.0 was a backwards compatible evolution of 1.0 that shifted the approach from MVC (old state of the art) to a more components based approach (similar to React in concept, not in implementation). Tom Dale was instrumental in making this happen, he didn't just ship v1 then proceeded to use React while doing some sad Ember support on the sidelines. 3. Why would he be one of them? Angular 1.x was the best thing for many JS developers, yet React came along. Why wouldn't the React developers just love Angular 1? There's a possibility that React will loose popularity to another solution. 4. Popularity is one potential indicator of how good a solution is. Despite it's popularity, many seasoned JS developers heavily disliked Angular 1.x because it felt like an overengineered-java-like-approach to building web apps. There are many seasoned JS programmers who are moving away from React to other solutions (Angular 2, Ember) because they have other pain points now, than 2 years ago. For example, Tom Dale once told me that he doesn't like redux as a solution for keeping the entire app state - yet Redux is all the rave now in Reactland. 5. JS (similar to PHP) has huge numbers of junior developers that can't build a web app on their own yet are working inside teams and are, in various degrees, competent at doing specific tasks. Almost all of the junior developers I know have heard of React and want to work with it despite not having the least understanding of what problems it solves and what problems it adds.
- dkarapetyan 10y ago> LinkedIn has bet big on Ember. I like how as technologists we talk about "betting" on things. As if technology choices are like gambles.
- daurnimator 10y agoAren't they? If there are two competing technologies, generally one will dominate, or more likely: both will be replaced by something new. You have to gamble that the technology you pick will stay relevant for long enough to be worth it.
- komali2 10y agoBut if it works, how is it a gamble?
- untog 10y agoTechnology is often a moving target, particular when it's end-user facing. You're betting that your choices will allow you to keep moving with that target, rather than get left behind by the latest browser release, iOS release, Android release, etc. etc.
- mateo411 10y agoYou are choosing an outcome which you think will happen in the future. It is not certain that this outcome will happen.
- inopinatus 10y agoI think a gamble needs to be predominantly a game of chance. Merely having an outcome that isn't certain would cause any choice to be labelled a "gamble", from crossing the road to turning on the kettle. Instead I believe choosing the right software platform is predominantly a game of skill and experience. Remember that old canard, "a poor craftsperson blames their tools"; the corollary is that a good craftsperson chooses good tools.
- tyingq 10y agoLots of flagged comments, I suppose because of short quips related to the sleazy things LinkedIn has done in the past. I'm sure he's not unaware of those things. I wonder if he's thinking he may be able to influence them? Discourage dark patterns? Discourage the current mobile experience that's broken unless you download the app and/or log in?
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- wmil 10y agoHe's probably thinking that past sleazy behavior was driven by a need for revenue. The Microsoft purchase changes that. MS needs to protect it's reputation more than it needs revenue from Linkedin.
- wstrange 10y agoMicrosoft paid 26 Billion for Linkedin. I'm pretty sure they expect to extract revenue out of them.
- tkxxx7 10y agoThey paid for the largest professional social graph in existence. That is inherent value they can use to strengthen their own product line (or "synergy" or whatever term they've been using).
- dozzie 10y agoIf Microsoft felt it needs to protect its reputation, our industry wouldn't have the Windows 10 calamity (user tracking, advertising built into the very OS, and unsolicited auto-update to Win10).
- blahblah12 10y ago
- treehau5 10y agoWe need specialists too. We need the folks who can tune x86 assembly better than -gcc 03. We need people who can write segfault free C++ code, and we need people to fix the Rust borrow checker bugs http://blog.ezyang.com/2013/12/two-bugs-in-the-borrow-checker-every-rust-developer-should-know-about/ http://blog.ezyang.com/2013/12/two-bugs-in-the-borrow-checke... There are plenty of available consumer of good tools, with more coming into the market every day. We need more specialists. Every person has the same capacity, the same brain, the same capability to become an Einstein, a Hoare, a Dijkstra, a whatever modern Comp Sci figure or AI leader you admire these days.
- steveklabnik 10y ago(note for those playing along at home: both of those "bugs" come down to the same issue, which is lexical vs non-lexical analysis. That post was written in 2013, but adding the non-lexical feature has taken quite a long time, requiring a huge refactor to the compiler internally. We're just now getting to the point where the feature could actually be worked on directly.) I firmly agree with your point here; we need more people of all kinds. Specialists, generalists, communicators, community organizers, all of it. Since this is an ember thread, I'll link to Yehuda: https://twitter.com/wycats/status/675498087717056512 https://twitter.com/wycats/status/675498087717056512
- dbaupp 10y agoAdvanced tools act as force multipliers for specialists, allowing them to focus on just their specialty and execute it even better & more efficiently e.g. instead of having to hand optimise large swathes of a program, -O3 does a good-enough job for most things, allowing the specialist to spend even more time on the small number of super-hot tight loops.
- RangerScience 10y ago> Every person has the same capacity, the same brain, the same capability to become an Einstein God, I wish this were true, but it definitely isn't. We're trained to think it is, by virtue of (first) our belief in meritocracy (it's value, and that we're in one), and (second) by RPGs and other games. Our baseline cultural assumption is that things are, in the end, fairly balanced... but this just isn't the case. I think it's demonstrable via the existing of evolution: There have to be differences between individuals on an inheritable level in order for evolution to occur, and if there are such differences, the playing field is NOT even.
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- WhitneyLand 10y agoIs this concerning? https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=ember.js,react.js https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=ember.js,react.js In any case congrats on the new gig Tom.
- jonnii 10y agoProbably not for the same reason this isn't concerning: https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=vue.js,react.js https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=vue.js,react.js
- ChemicalScum 10y agoOoooh I like this game! How about now? https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=ember%20js,react%20js,vue%20js,angular%20js https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=ember%20js,react%20j...
- Ralfp 10y agoI've moved from Ember to React year back. Then over year I've (crappily) recreated Ember.js using React.js and libraries. Ember.js had many strong parts, but also had many issues that pulled it down. Documentation overfocused on explaining concepts but not providing examples of how to solve real issues. New release every six weeks bringing painful deprecations and changes. Lack of realworld apps to look up to for examples. Ember-Data that worked out the box... unless you weren't using Rails for your backend, in which case you've needed bridges and drivers for it to work. Rich of resources assuming that your backend is Rails or that you have enough of understaing about it to translate examples for your tech. All of this eventually pushed me away to React.js that seemed less opiniated about your backend and richer in examples and manuals, as well as unopiniated enough to forgive my mistakes and let me lear from them. Since moving I've made a lot of mistakes with my own solution build using React.js and libs from its ecosystem, which eventually made me understand design choices behind Ember.js, but I still preffer to improve on what I have now instead of considering returning to Ember.js.
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- neom 10y agoRegardless of web tech, Tom is an awesome dude and Linkedin is lucky to have him. ^5
- fergie 10y agoI kind of agree with this. Saw him give a presentation a few years ago, and was very impressed (and entertained). Tried out ember after that, and quickly found some dead ends for my use case, but hey- at least he actually got out of bed and made something. Another thing to bear in mind is that ember is more or less an independent technology, whereas Angular and React have the weight of giant corporations behind them.
- ffn 10y ago> Joining LinkedIn Great, I'm glad Ember is gaining more traction in enterprise... but what does this mean for things like Fastboot, Ember 3.0, glimmer 2.0, ember-cli 3.0, and the whole cast of in-room-elephants such as ember-redux, flexi, ember-data, vr, etc.?
- zackthehuman 10y agoFastboot is still being actively worked on. Glimmer 2 is used in production by LinkedIn and others, and they continue to work on it with other Ember contributors. In fact, almost all of the things you listed are still being worked on by their respective contributors and I can confirm because I know this first-hand.
- ggregoire 10y ago> I'm glad Ember is gaining more traction in enterprise Isn't Ember mostly used in enterprise?
- jrowley 10y agoApple Music was built in Ember for example. http://builtwithember.io/featured/2015/07/04/apple-music/ http://builtwithember.io/featured/2015/07/04/apple-music/
- joshhart 10y agoThe mobile-web version of LinkedIn and the new website are built in Ember. We already use Glimmer 2.0 because we care about web performance. So we care deeply about many of the things you mentioned. Source: I'm the lead eng for our consumer group
- mwcampbell 10y agoIt seems to me that the true analogue of gcc -O3 for web apps is the Google Closure Compiler in advanced mode. How effectively can Ember applications take advantage of this?
- sekou 10y ago> artisanal, shade-grown code doesn’t scale to large engineering organizations Some leeway could me made around that statement. People who work in fishing and agricultural industries for example could benefit from unique and specially crafted services when it comes to job search and fulfillment. There is a certain effectiveness in the one-size-fits-all approach of applications like Facebook but it could stand to exist within a more diverse ecosystem.
- lomnakkus 10y ago> Some leeway could me made around that statement. What do you mean? Who needs the leeway? (I suspect "artisanal, shade-grown code" just means "bad", but perhaps stated in a more PR-friendly way.) > People who work in fishing and agricultural[...] What are you talking about? I've known several people who work in fishing (fish farming, specifically), and I can assure you that they weren't particularly concerned about "job search" or "fulfillment". They were concerned about maximizing profit amidst the intense competition. Can you relate what your fish-worker acquaintances/friends told you?
- WillEngler 10y agoI thought "artisanal, shade-grown code" was such a delightful phrase. I took it to mean not bad, but rather too costly for practical/mass use. Like some people can afford to buy $6 lattes, and those are likely very tasty lattes, but Folgers is going to move more beans.
- refractiveco 10y agoI think it's referencing middle-out compression.
- lomnakkus 10y agoIt's an amazing phrase. AFAICT it doesn't actually mean anything. I certainly understand why such a high-profile developer would choose such a "bland, yet poetic" phrasing; my issue is just with trying to interpret it as somehow insightful.
- nissimk 10y agoDoes this mean I can expect improvements in the mobile web app? It has so many issues that I won't click the links on my phone. No, I don't want the android app. Stop asking me. Stop directing me to my home page when I clicked a link to go deep into the site. And please stop showing that spinner for unlimited time. Also, these may be back end issues but both the desktop and mobile web sites fail to update the notification indicators after you've responded to friend requests or read your feed.
- tomrod 10y agoI agree, it really is a terrible experience. If I've received a notification from a service, I want near instantaneous response. The whole waiting-for-more-than-3-minutes to load business is disturbing to me.
- timonovici 10y agoOh, you're preaching to the choir. They're the worst. By far, the worst mobile experience, and by far the most aggressive push for their mobile app. I choose not to open their mail on my mobile phone. And obviously I don't want their mobile app. They must think of themselves as Facebook Messenger, which most people check with obsession, or at least aspire to become that.
- yomly 10y agoWhat's the reason for this? Is it because an app-user is a much richer data slave? Airbnb are also relentless for pushing users to their app even though the app is an inferior product to their website.
- DerpyBaby123 10y agoExactly that. The tripadvisor experience is also bad, they block all but 5 reviews from their mobile site to push users to their app
- kethinov 10y ago> Perhaps you can write a tiny web app that loads instantly and still retains a full set of features, but most of the world cannot. I've long been skeptical of this line of thinking emanating from major thick client JS framework authors. I think they underestimate what people are capable of. > Over time, Ember will become like gcc -O3 for web apps, intelligently optimizing them and delivering them as fast as possible, piece by piece, to your user’s browser. I've been observing these trends for years and what I'm seeing is this: ever since these new thick client JS frameworks became so trendy, web performance has dramatically decreased, not increased. This one-two combo punch of framework authors condescending their users as "our target audience is devs who can't hand code" while simultaneously promising performance that's just as good as hand coding and perpetually failing to deliver is a toxic stew that is crippling web performance.
- twblalock 10y agoWhich frameworks claim to target "devs who can't hand code"?
- mikekchar 10y agoTo a certain extent all of them do. "devs who can't code" is hyperbole, but the whole point of a framework is to provide a framework that allows you to fill in the details without building all the plumbing underneath. This is distinct from a reuse library where you write the plumbing while someone else has written the details of some functionality. Often you get these super-frameworks that do all the plumbing for you and throw in veritable kitchen sinks of reuse libraries with the intent that you glue it all together to match your business logic. Very frequently this is the stated aim of these super-frameworks -- reason only about your business logic and leave all the details to us. It is a compelling story, but usually one that doesn't have a happy ending. The devil is in the details. Your business logic usually requires you to hack something that the framework/library authors didn't anticipate. That hack leads to 10 more as you route around the "it isn't supposed to be done this way, but what could we do" mess. Over time it degenerates. Then you hire old guys like me who are willing to accept money to grind out all the problems without quitting in a huff and running to the new shiny ;-) (only because our legs are tired from running after shinies when we were young). There are lots of reuse libraries and even minimal frameworks who specifically say, "You're going to have to wire this up yourself. We're not going to make it easy for you. That's because we can't anticipate the problems you will run into and we are trying to give you as much space as possible to figure out how it should be done". I like frameworks and libraries like that. I don't like the other ones, even though they generally pay my salary.
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- Bahamut 10y agoThis makes a lot of sense - LinkedIn has basically went almost all in (if not all in) on Ember. Being probably the biggest tech company relying so heavily on Ember, it's unsurprising that they want a core maintainer of it on board.
- lightblade 10y agoIt's not "a" core maintainer. LinkedIn now has 4 (out of 13) Ember core members on board.
- cozuya 10y agoJust curious but what happened to Dust? Is it still a thing with them?
- zackthehuman 10y agoIt is still a thing. (Source: I work there.)
- r0m4n0 10y agoInteresting they made that bet on Ember... My only assumption is they made that bet a few years ago and have been working on the refresh that just went live. Seasoned Ember developers are going to be hard to come by not that they couldn't settle for any other JavaScript specialist. I'm debating on an Ember gig this very moment and am slightly bothered by the idea of spending a year on a framework that is on a downward popularity trend...
- 1945 10y ago> downward popularity trend Ember has always dwarfed by Angular and now more recently.. React. They simply have more marketing dollars behind them. That said, it has always had a strong community behind it, and believe it or not it's still growing strong.
- amorphid 10y agoMaybe you can help fix their new search UI. As a power user, I find it basically unusable. For me, that was the final nail in the proverbial coffin of usability. It is so bad AND slow.
- javascript-this 10y agoAs long as companies continue to value maintainability over efficiency you're going to have slow sites.
- iamleppert 10y agoThe ember roll out within LinkedIn has been a disaster from those I know still working there. No one likes it and it takes over 20 minutes to "build" the code from scratch. We're talking about frontend code, mind you. At a certain level in LinkedIn, someone decided to standardize on Ember. Fine. But there were many issues, and instead of finding a more suitable and workable pragmatic framework, LinkedIn is instead deciding to hire Ember people to fix up their framework so it's actually useable. We really do work in the only industry where you can get hired to fix a mess you created yourself. Anyway, besides the recruiter app, is LinkedIn really worthy of a SPA experience? Last time I checked isn't most of the traffic a quick "accept connection" or reply to inmail, or maybe check who viewed your profile bounce? Does the average user actually spend time in it? Probably not. I'm reminded by a certain quote from a friend: "At a certain level in McDonald's, the managers start thinking of themselves as restaurateurs, and not fast food servants."
- luketheobscure 10y agoI can't imagine where that 20 minutes number came from. Maybe a fresh `git clone && npm install && bower install && ember start`... But even then that seems very high (and somewhat irrelevant since subsequent builds will take seconds). Citation needed? The people who are talking publicly seem very excited about how things are going. Chris Thoburn (runspired) was on Ember Weekend a few weeks ago talking about the work he's doing on Ember Data over at LinkedIn.
- cocktailpeanuts 10y agoif you count all the jenkins task with automated unit tests and integration tests, etc. this is pretty believable. It happens all the time.
- iamleppert 10y agoI can't give you a direct citation, sadly. And this is just one anecdote, there are many others on how this choice of framework has actually contributed to losses of productivity, the exact opposite of what its supposed to do, I assume?
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- jamies888888 10y agoWho signs off moving huge, billion dollar companies onto immature, "hip" JavaScript frameworks? I don't get it. It's too niche. It's too risky. How are you expected to make hires for specialists in such a niche technology which may or may not be here in a few years? Do they just hire good JavaScript developers and train them for Ember? And also tell them they may have to retrain in another framework in a couple of years when Ember becomes defunct?
- Matthias247 10y agoI'm not into Ember and have no clue how it compares to the other SPA frameworks. But from these political point of view it doesn't look worse than the others. React and Angular might die or change in an unsuitable way even sooner since they are driven by other big companies for their own merits. Maybe extjs or aurelia might be different, since they are maintained by companies which earn their money through this. The good thing is that if a company is as big as LinkedIn they could probably maintain the framework on their own if it gets out of favor. Of course they could also directly start a new one for their internal use, but it's questionable if this would get any better than the existing ones.
- orf 10y agoEmber has been around for a while now, isn't that hip and very stable for a JS framework.
- tragic 10y agoWas it too hip, niche, etc to use Spring for a Java project in 2007? Because that's how old Ember is now. I don't really get why you're talking as if thick client web apps are some sort of unexplored continent that prudent enterprises should stay away from. Like it or lump it, they've been around for a while and there are now enough of them that they will be around for a long while yet. And if you're going to build one of those, you should use a framework.
- dbbk 10y ago> Do they just hire good JavaScript developers and train them for Ember? There is really not a whole lot of Ember-specific training you need to go through. A good JavaScript developer would just have to read through the guides once to grasp its concepts.
- tehwalrus 10y agoSome of the discussions on this thread remind me why I'm pleased I don't work on code for browsers. I've been writing native (or python) stuff for a long while, and I've come to rely on the assumptions the code makes being roughly constant (from the point of view of the language definition.) My brain recoils at the idea of targeting a large number of different systems at once, like browsers and their versions, and then have the same code run on the huge set of future versions... If your code behaves differently under a new GCC, it indicates a bug in your code. If your javascript behaves differently in the latest Chrome, that's just life.
- jit_hacker 10y agoLOL. I love how full of his own crap Tom Dale has become. Ember is a good framework with a lot of potential, but more than anything it needs a good PM. Ember devs just spent nearly 14 months rewriting the layout engine (Glimmer 2.0) that they had spent the prior 8 months writing (Glimmer). And what do they have to show for it? A 100ms or so speed boost on complex views. Instead they should focus on fixing up the crufty parts of their API and adding feature they've been promising users for years. Instead Tom Dale has been off writing FastBoot, an even more niche component of Ember that very few apps will even use. React and Angular are far from perfect, but one upside is they have parent companies to help keep them focused.
- zackthehuman 10y agoHaving worked on Glimmer 2 myself, I don't think it's accurate to say that Ember devs worked on it for 14 months (that is, it took 14 months of work to same 100ms). It had initial work done for a long time and then it sat for a while unchanged because it's an open-source project that people work on when they have time. Month later work started up again to get it out the door. I think that since LinkedIn is "all in" on Ember it will help to get some of the cruft removed and things moving forward. LinkedIn has probably the largest and most complex Ember app in existence, so there are a lot of learnings to take an use to improve the framework and ecosystem.
- jit_hacker 10y agoWell the Glimmer 2.0 effort started around the same time Ember 2.0 shipped (Aug 2015). That was 16 months ago, Glimmer 2.0 shipped about 2 months ago, ergo 14 months. I agree that it wasn't under development the entire time, but it was a blocker for many other features the entire time. Basically when 2.0 landed, routable components couldn't be worked on until glimmer components were completed. Angle brackets, Improved Pods, etc, same. So even if it wasn't under dev that whole time, it held back other features that would have really improved Ember.
- mkrishnan 10y agoEmber is a great framework and equally as powerful and popular like angular or react. yet its developed by just a bunch of guys on their free time unlike other frameworks which had huge enterprise support. I hope tom leverages the linkedin support and take ember to next level.