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The fact we're still discussing the trackpad, suspend/wake, fonts, networking, and UI - in 2017 - means the problem still isn't solved on Linux. I gave a decad

by idm 10y ago

The fact we're still discussing the trackpad, suspend/wake, fonts, networking, and UI - in 2017 - means the problem still isn't solved on Linux. I gave a decade over to that quest (1996-2006) and then spent the next decade using MBPs. With a macbook pro, I have never once wondered about my trackpad, suspend/wake, fonts, networking, UI, or a host of other things like printers, scanners, USB, bluetooth, or external displays. That level of compatibility is a miracle, from the perspective of a daily Linux user. I have used my laptop for heavy computation, software dev, academic work, major presentations, video and multimedia, casual browsing, gaming, etc, and it has NEVER given me trouble due to compatibility. Having spent way too much of my life thinking about those problems on Linux, you have no idea how liberating it is to be free of those concerns. I get OCD about using a specific brand of disposable pen, so you'd better believe I think about the most important tool in my life: my laptop. The MBP is too good to accept any alternative. The 2016 was underwhelming, but it's still the best laptop/OS combination out there. It costs too much for the market and it's not enough-better to justify the upgrade, but dammit there's nothing that even compares. I've been thinking hard about alternatives to the MBP during the past few months, and my decision is that I can't give all this up and still be a functioning academic and entrepreneur. I'll pay the $1000 premium and if I value my time at $25/hour, I'll recover that additional cost within 2 months compared to Linux maintenance. I wish it weren't so, but the maths don't lie.

Frondo 10y ago
As a counterpoint, I've been a daily Mageia linux user since 2011, and Mandriva since 2009. I've had that "just works" experience for both of them, on a variety of cheap laptops, pretty much from the start. Whatever they do to detect hardware, it works. I wouldn't even remember how to hand-edit a config file anymore, seriously. That knowledge is gone.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Good for you. The fact that so many don't have that experience means it's still a problem.
loup-vaillant 10y ago
> The fact we're still discussing the trackpad, suspend/wake, fonts, networking, and UI - in 2017 - means the problem still isn't solved on Linux. One reason is, it's not Linux's problem to solve. It's the hardware vendor's. Those morons still don't ship with proper drivers, firmware, or even specs —possibly because spending a single cent on Linux isn't economically viable or something. Last time I checked, suspend and power management does work flawlessly on Linux… when the hardware is a couple year's old. But it will never work properly on new hardware unless the vendors make it so themselves. On the other hand, Wifi hardware vendors now often ship with proprietary drivers. Proprietary sucks, but it at least works. > I'll pay the $1000 premium and if I value my time at $25/hour, I'll recover that additional cost within 2 months compared to Linux maintenance. I wish it weren't so, but the maths don't lie. Let's be generous and assume MacOS requires zero maintenance. 1000/25 means 40 hours (a full work-week), of Linux maintenance. A full work-week in only 2 months, aren't you being a tiny bit hyperbolic? I spend a few minutes per month in maintenance.
- idm 10y ago
  Think of it like this: 8 weeks, 5 days per week, 1 hour per day. That's 40 hours. I spend more than a few minutes a month administering my MBP, so I have no idea how you get along doing so little for a Linux machine. In fact, I spend more than a few minutes a month administering my Linux servers... I honestly think my 1-hour-per-day estimate is in the ballpark and your experience sounds unlike mine.
  - loup-vaillant 10y ago
    Maybe I'm just negligent, but I do have a remote server I spent a full week configuring (web, and mail, just for me, from ssh). I'm no sysadmin, I expect a good one would have needed no more than a couple hours. But I haven't touched it in months. It just works. (Or not. Lack of updates may have lead to vulnerabilities.) At this point I doubt we mean the same thing by "administration". To me, it means updating the system, fixing what doesn't work, and installing new programs. Spending en entire hour per day just for this sounds insane. Perhaps you had other tasks in mind? Also bear in mind that I'm currently using a "long term support" release of Ubuntu, on hardware I knew would be well supported (I've read a couple reviews). It's not Arch on a random laptop.
auggierose 10y ago
Very well said.
keldaris 10y ago
> The fact we're still discussing the trackpad, suspend/wake, fonts, networking, and UI - in 2017 - means the problem still isn't solved on Linux. That criticism doesn't make much sense to me. Linux is just a kernel and virtually none of those things (except sometimes in the case of the very shiniest new hardware) have any kernel issues. Distros, on the other hand, have different priorities and you should pick accordingly. Don't use something like Arch if these are your main priorities. Pick a stable LTS release of a casual user-centric distro like Fedora or Ubuntu and pick hardware that's well supported, and you won't have any of these issues. It's no different from OSX, where using unsupported hardware also requires constant tinkering and research before updates. I suspect many of these unfortunate user experiences come about because users don't do research and pick something at random. You can't do that with Apple, because you don't get any meaningful choices in the first place, so you can't make the wrong ones.

by idm 10y ago

Frondo 10y ago

As a counterpoint, I've been a daily Mageia linux user since 2011, and Mandriva since 2009. I've had that "just works" experience for both of them, on a variety of cheap laptops, pretty much from the start. Whatever they do to detect hardware, it works. I wouldn't even remember how to hand-edit a config file anymore, seriously. That knowledge is gone.

st3v3r 10y ago
Good for you. The fact that so many don't have that experience means it's still a problem.

loup-vaillant 10y ago

> The fact we're still discussing the trackpad, suspend/wake, fonts, networking, and UI - in 2017 - means the problem still isn't solved on Linux. One reason is, it's not Linux's problem to solve. It's the hardware vendor's. Those morons still don't ship with proper drivers, firmware, or even specs —possibly because spending a single cent on Linux isn't economically viable or something. Last time I checked, suspend and power management does work flawlessly on Linux… when the hardware is a couple year's old. But it will never work properly on new hardware unless the vendors make it so themselves. On the other hand, Wifi hardware vendors now often ship with proprietary drivers. Proprietary sucks, but it at least works. > I'll pay the $1000 premium and if I value my time at $25/hour, I'll recover that additional cost within 2 months compared to Linux maintenance. I wish it weren't so, but the maths don't lie. Let's be generous and assume MacOS requires zero maintenance. 1000/25 means 40 hours (a full work-week), of Linux maintenance. A full work-week in only 2 months, aren't you being a tiny bit hyperbolic? I spend a few minutes per month in maintenance.

idm 10y ago
Think of it like this: 8 weeks, 5 days per week, 1 hour per day. That's 40 hours. I spend more than a few minutes a month administering my MBP, so I have no idea how you get along doing so little for a Linux machine. In fact, I spend more than a few minutes a month administering my Linux servers... I honestly think my 1-hour-per-day estimate is in the ballpark and your experience sounds unlike mine.
- loup-vaillant 10y ago
  Maybe I'm just negligent, but I do have a remote server I spent a full week configuring (web, and mail, just for me, from ssh). I'm no sysadmin, I expect a good one would have needed no more than a couple hours. But I haven't touched it in months. It just works. (Or not. Lack of updates may have lead to vulnerabilities.) At this point I doubt we mean the same thing by "administration". To me, it means updating the system, fixing what doesn't work, and installing new programs. Spending en entire hour per day just for this sounds insane. Perhaps you had other tasks in mind? Also bear in mind that I'm currently using a "long term support" release of Ubuntu, on hardware I knew would be well supported (I've read a couple reviews). It's not Arch on a random laptop.

auggierose 10y ago

Very well said.

keldaris 10y ago

> The fact we're still discussing the trackpad, suspend/wake, fonts, networking, and UI - in 2017 - means the problem still isn't solved on Linux. That criticism doesn't make much sense to me. Linux is just a kernel and virtually none of those things (except sometimes in the case of the very shiniest new hardware) have any kernel issues. Distros, on the other hand, have different priorities and you should pick accordingly. Don't use something like Arch if these are your main priorities. Pick a stable LTS release of a casual user-centric distro like Fedora or Ubuntu and pick hardware that's well supported, and you won't have any of these issues. It's no different from OSX, where using unsupported hardware also requires constant tinkering and research before updates. I suspect many of these unfortunate user experiences come about because users don't do research and pick something at random. You can't do that with Apple, because you don't get any meaningful choices in the first place, so you can't make the wrong ones.