7 ms·

While I agree that expecting users to use real names is a bad thing, this knocked the air out of me: > In societies including the US where violence and mistrea

by mjolk 10y ago

While I agree that expecting users to use real names is a bad thing, this knocked the air out of me: > In societies including the US where violence and mistreatment of women, people of color, and marginalized people is common, we can expect similar problems in people’s digital interactions [1] > [1] Sarah Banet-Weiser and Kate M. Miltner. #MasculinitySoFragile: culture, structure, and networked misogyny. Feminist Media Studies, 16(1):171-174, January 2016. I reject the assertion that these issues are "common" in the US, even if "violence and mistreatment" is broadly defined as people acting rudely on the internet. A post by ESR was even flagged off HN because its message was that he expected evidence to back claims of harassment, which is a microcosm of the trend of "feelings > reality". This is absolutely ludicrous and I'm surprised Mozilla is funding this junk. Further, it's getting rather tiring that the US is always listed as an example when countries/societies exist without legal protection for all races/genders and where slavery and forced labor is still legal.

grzm 10y ago
A post by ESR was even flagged off HN because its message was that he expected evidence to back claims of harassment There's at least one other reason users may have flagged it, and in line with the site guidelines: it doesn't sufficiently satisfy intellectual curiosity, and at the same time has a high likelihood of producing little to no constructive discussion while also being very susceptible to flamewars. That doesn't mean that the topic shouldn't be discussed, just that it's unlikely to be constructively and civilly discussed on HN.
- mjolk 10y ago
  That's fair, but the article was creating (mostly) civil discussion and it was on the topic of perceived bias in open source software communities. I can't not think that it was shot down by someone to defend an ideology.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
> I reject the assertion that these issues are "common" in the US On what grounds do you reject that? Do you have hard evidence that women and ethnic/sexual minorities in the US are not at increased risk of violence and mistreatment? Or are you basing this on "feelings > reality", as you put it? > Further, it's getting rather tiring that the US is always listed as an example when countries/societies exist without legal protection for all races/genders and where slavery and forced labor is still legal. The "I can't be bad as long as someone, somewhere, is worse" argument is a classic excuse to get out of ever having to improve anything.
- inlined 10y ago
  > The "I can't be bad as long as someone, somewhere, is worse" argument is a classic excuse to get out of ever having to improve anything. Recently learned the awesome names for this fallacy. "Tu quoque"[1] is the general name. Whataboutism[2] is the awesome term for its use in soviet propeganda. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
  - mjolk 10y ago
    I don't think I was committing a logical fallacy -- I took exception to the article author's attempt at establishing alleged certainty, especially using relativistic terms. In any case, based on your mention of learning new fallacy names, you'll probably like this site: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
    - grzm 10y ago
      I vouched for this comment as I didn't see anything particularly egregious: looks like the included URI triggers some automatic down-voting behavior (perhaps to encourage better discourse rather than calling out fallacies?) Regardless, it's probably not worth including that link in the future :)
      - 10y ago
DanBC 10y ago
> A post by ESR was even flagged off HN because its message was that he expected evidence to back claims of harassment, No. People flag ESR posts because he's a pathological arsehole and his threads contain some deeply unpleasant posts. >I reject the assertion that these issues are "common" in the US Interesting that you complained about people not bothering to support their claims, and then immediately make a claim with no support.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Who is ESR?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Eric S Raymond, author of some important and influential software related books (Cathedral and Bazaar, for example), but also a mysogynistic, homophobic, conspiracy theorist It's hard to pick one example because there are so many, but read what he says about the Catholic abuse scandal: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=26 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=26 There are so many errors scattered through that piece that there's no point rebutting them. It's best to just flag anything (not related to computing) about ESR.
    - mjolk 10y ago
      > It's best to just flag anything (not related to computing) about ESR. That doesn't mean that he's incapable of making a coherent or interesting argument. Don't flag just because you expect to be offended, as the flag mechanism prevents others from being exposed to content that they may be interested in, if even just to sharpen their sword for use on someone trying to put what you see as harmful/dangerous thoughts into actions.
  - sedachv 10y ago
    ESR is Eric S Raymond, a troll that made his fame from writing about/antagonizing the Free Software community. His "accomplishments" include starting the "Open Source vs Free Software" naming controversy and ruining The Hacker's Dictionary.
webXL 10y ago
Same here. The US definitely has a lot of problems, but the criticisms are often devoid of any context and only serve to further some narrow agenda. > In societies including the US... Oh, so the other unnamed "decent" societies must have figured it (their social and cultural problems) out then. And you've chosen to focus on "digital interactions"... why??

by mjolk 10y ago

grzm 10y ago

A post by ESR was even flagged off HN because its message was that he expected evidence to back claims of harassment There's at least one other reason users may have flagged it, and in line with the site guidelines: it doesn't sufficiently satisfy intellectual curiosity, and at the same time has a high likelihood of producing little to no constructive discussion while also being very susceptible to flamewars. That doesn't mean that the topic shouldn't be discussed, just that it's unlikely to be constructively and civilly discussed on HN.

mjolk 10y ago
That's fair, but the article was creating (mostly) civil discussion and it was on the topic of perceived bias in open source software communities. I can't not think that it was shot down by someone to defend an ideology.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

> I reject the assertion that these issues are "common" in the US On what grounds do you reject that? Do you have hard evidence that women and ethnic/sexual minorities in the US are not at increased risk of violence and mistreatment? Or are you basing this on "feelings > reality", as you put it? > Further, it's getting rather tiring that the US is always listed as an example when countries/societies exist without legal protection for all races/genders and where slavery and forced labor is still legal. The "I can't be bad as long as someone, somewhere, is worse" argument is a classic excuse to get out of ever having to improve anything.

inlined 10y ago
> The "I can't be bad as long as someone, somewhere, is worse" argument is a classic excuse to get out of ever having to improve anything. Recently learned the awesome names for this fallacy. "Tu quoque"[1] is the general name. Whataboutism[2] is the awesome term for its use in soviet propeganda. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- mjolk 10y ago
  I don't think I was committing a logical fallacy -- I took exception to the article author's attempt at establishing alleged certainty, especially using relativistic terms. In any case, based on your mention of learning new fallacy names, you'll probably like this site: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
  - grzm 10y ago
    I vouched for this comment as I didn't see anything particularly egregious: looks like the included URI triggers some automatic down-voting behavior (perhaps to encourage better discourse rather than calling out fallacies?) Regardless, it's probably not worth including that link in the future :)
    - 10y ago

DanBC 10y ago

> A post by ESR was even flagged off HN because its message was that he expected evidence to back claims of harassment, No. People flag ESR posts because he's a pathological arsehole and his threads contain some deeply unpleasant posts. >I reject the assertion that these issues are "common" in the US Interesting that you complained about people not bothering to support their claims, and then immediately make a claim with no support.

nommm-nommm 10y ago
Who is ESR?
- DanBC 10y ago
  Eric S Raymond, author of some important and influential software related books (Cathedral and Bazaar, for example), but also a mysogynistic, homophobic, conspiracy theorist It's hard to pick one example because there are so many, but read what he says about the Catholic abuse scandal: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=26 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=26 There are so many errors scattered through that piece that there's no point rebutting them. It's best to just flag anything (not related to computing) about ESR.
  - mjolk 10y ago
    > It's best to just flag anything (not related to computing) about ESR. That doesn't mean that he's incapable of making a coherent or interesting argument. Don't flag just because you expect to be offended, as the flag mechanism prevents others from being exposed to content that they may be interested in, if even just to sharpen their sword for use on someone trying to put what you see as harmful/dangerous thoughts into actions.
- sedachv 10y ago
  ESR is Eric S Raymond, a troll that made his fame from writing about/antagonizing the Free Software community. His "accomplishments" include starting the "Open Source vs Free Software" naming controversy and ruining The Hacker's Dictionary.

webXL 10y ago

Same here. The US definitely has a lot of problems, but the criticisms are often devoid of any context and only serve to further some narrow agenda. > In societies including the US... Oh, so the other unnamed "decent" societies must have figured it (their social and cultural problems) out then. And you've chosen to focus on "digital interactions"... why??