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The problem here is what happens when the inflammation goes down? All that fat that's been stored is still going to be burned as energy assuming one is eating

by wdewind 10y ago

The problem here is what happens when the inflammation goes down? All that fat that's been stored is still going to be burned as energy assuming one is eating within a caloric balance. It's frustrating to read all this research into the mechanism of what causes fat to be stored short term, because we already know what really causes fat to be stored long term: eating too much. We need to be researching the reward systems associated with eating, and we need to start treating obesity as the mental health issue it is. It's a food addiction, and what we don't need to understand more deeply is how fat is stored. What we do need to understand more deeply is why people eat too much and how to get them to comply to healthier lifestyles. The answers are going to look a lot like drug addiction (ie: people are self-medicating depression, anxiety, etc. with food).

dragonwriter 10y ago
> All that fat that's been stored is still going to be burned as energy assuming one is eating within a caloric balance. No, if you are eating within caloric balance, the fat will not be burned for energy. > we need to start treating obesity as the mental health issue it is. Obesity is not a "mental health issue". It's a symptom. There may (or may not) be mental health issues underlying it. > It's a food addiction Food addictions are a real thing, and obviously where they exist they can contribute to obesity. It's also clearly the case that obesity is not simply food addiction. > What we do need to understand more deeply is why people eat too much There's a lot of work that has been done on this. > The answers are going to look a lot like drug addiction If you mean "they are going to be very complex sets of environmental, genetic, and physical and mental health factors that combine differently in different people, and that often the most effective interventions will be more indicated by the current state than the root causes in individual history", I'd agree that it will look a lot like drug addiction. In fact, we already know that obesity is, in that respect, like drug addiction, so that's just predicting the present, not future results.
- wdewind 10y ago
  There are not obese people who do not eat too much. They simply do not exist. Then the question becomes: why do they eat too much? Yes, you are right, it's a complex answer involving a ton of things. But my point in framing it as a food addiction is that the issue here is not that there is some kind of underlying metabolic damage or difference that accounts for obesity, unless that damage/difference somehow contributes to increasing the desire to eat more. If we could somehow get them to simply eat less, the condition would go away. There are arguments to be made about the mind body connection, and I think they are real, but the issues here are not that obese people are eating the same amount of food as non-obese people and that inflammation is causing some of that energy to be stored as fat. It's ridiculous and misleading for people who are genuinely trying to change their lives to suggest that small effects like this are the cause. Also: > No, if you are eating within caloric balance, the fat will not be burned for energy. Fat is constantly being stored and burned as energy even within a caloric balance. You cannot store fat longterm without at some point eating at a caloric surplus.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Fat is constantly being stored and burned as energy even within a caloric balance. Sure, but (barring lean/fat changes due to exercise level), thats no net change in stored fat. > You cannot store fat longterm without at some point eating at a caloric surplus. Right, that's how it got stored in the first place. Once it's stored, though, you can keep the same quantity indefinitely without a surplus.
    - wdewind 10y ago
      Agreed but no response to the rest of that though? Haha :)
  - aantix 10y ago
    >get them to simply eat less It's not so "simple"; the body fights back. Hunger kicks in overdrive, the body becomes sleepy, lethargic, you get "fog brain" (for programmers this is death). Exercise leads to an amplification of these symptoms. It's not so easy as to "just put down the fork" or journal your feelings. The body doesn't want to change. And it's not like the body stops these signals after a while. I have dropped 30+ pounds, always to gain it back. Your framing of an addiction fails, especially when the participant still has to interact with food. It fails when the self-preservation acts in spite of the intent. It's a plan of perpetual feelings of starvation and less than ideal living quality. Gastric Bypass/Roux-en-Y appears to be the only long-term successful intervention. Weight loss is maintained https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22865194 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22865194
    - wdewind 10y ago
      > It's not so "simple"; the body fights back. Hunger kicks in overdrive, the body becomes sleepy, lethargic, you get "fog brain" (for programmers this is death). For about two weeks, maybe. This is all the result of low blood sugar. Your body gets better at using fat to keep blood sugar high, and these symptoms subside. > Exercise leads to an amplification of these symptoms. I have literally never heard anyone else claim this, and what little science there is suggests the opposite. > It's not so easy as to "just put down the fork" or journal your feelings. The body doesn't want to change. Right, I'm not suggesting it is easy, I'm suggesting it is simple. > And it's not like the body stops these signals after a while. I have dropped 30+ pounds, always to gain it back. If you are still having the symptoms of low blood sugar that lasts for a significant period of time (> 2 weeks), this is absolutely something your doctor should look into. Regardless: the meta point here is that the body is not literally starving, it just feels like it is. Which sounds a lot like addiction: the body doesn't literally need those drugs, but brain chemistry makes it feel like it does. The study you linked to does not seem like a glowing endorsement for gastric bypass to me. Also, not that it matters, but you're talking to someone who has lost 35lbs more than a year ago, so I do have direct experience.

by wdewind 10y ago

dragonwriter 10y ago

> All that fat that's been stored is still going to be burned as energy assuming one is eating within a caloric balance. No, if you are eating within caloric balance, the fat will not be burned for energy. > we need to start treating obesity as the mental health issue it is. Obesity is not a "mental health issue". It's a symptom. There may (or may not) be mental health issues underlying it. > It's a food addiction Food addictions are a real thing, and obviously where they exist they can contribute to obesity. It's also clearly the case that obesity is not simply food addiction. > What we do need to understand more deeply is why people eat too much There's a lot of work that has been done on this. > The answers are going to look a lot like drug addiction If you mean "they are going to be very complex sets of environmental, genetic, and physical and mental health factors that combine differently in different people, and that often the most effective interventions will be more indicated by the current state than the root causes in individual history", I'd agree that it will look a lot like drug addiction. In fact, we already know that obesity is, in that respect, like drug addiction, so that's just predicting the present, not future results.

wdewind 10y ago
There are not obese people who do not eat too much. They simply do not exist. Then the question becomes: why do they eat too much? Yes, you are right, it's a complex answer involving a ton of things. But my point in framing it as a food addiction is that the issue here is not that there is some kind of underlying metabolic damage or difference that accounts for obesity, unless that damage/difference somehow contributes to increasing the desire to eat more. If we could somehow get them to simply eat less, the condition would go away. There are arguments to be made about the mind body connection, and I think they are real, but the issues here are not that obese people are eating the same amount of food as non-obese people and that inflammation is causing some of that energy to be stored as fat. It's ridiculous and misleading for people who are genuinely trying to change their lives to suggest that small effects like this are the cause. Also: > No, if you are eating within caloric balance, the fat will not be burned for energy. Fat is constantly being stored and burned as energy even within a caloric balance. You cannot store fat longterm without at some point eating at a caloric surplus.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Fat is constantly being stored and burned as energy even within a caloric balance. Sure, but (barring lean/fat changes due to exercise level), thats no net change in stored fat. > You cannot store fat longterm without at some point eating at a caloric surplus. Right, that's how it got stored in the first place. Once it's stored, though, you can keep the same quantity indefinitely without a surplus.
  - wdewind 10y ago
    Agreed but no response to the rest of that though? Haha :)
- aantix 10y ago
  >get them to simply eat less It's not so "simple"; the body fights back. Hunger kicks in overdrive, the body becomes sleepy, lethargic, you get "fog brain" (for programmers this is death). Exercise leads to an amplification of these symptoms. It's not so easy as to "just put down the fork" or journal your feelings. The body doesn't want to change. And it's not like the body stops these signals after a while. I have dropped 30+ pounds, always to gain it back. Your framing of an addiction fails, especially when the participant still has to interact with food. It fails when the self-preservation acts in spite of the intent. It's a plan of perpetual feelings of starvation and less than ideal living quality. Gastric Bypass/Roux-en-Y appears to be the only long-term successful intervention. Weight loss is maintained https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22865194 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22865194
  - wdewind 10y ago
    > It's not so "simple"; the body fights back. Hunger kicks in overdrive, the body becomes sleepy, lethargic, you get "fog brain" (for programmers this is death). For about two weeks, maybe. This is all the result of low blood sugar. Your body gets better at using fat to keep blood sugar high, and these symptoms subside. > Exercise leads to an amplification of these symptoms. I have literally never heard anyone else claim this, and what little science there is suggests the opposite. > It's not so easy as to "just put down the fork" or journal your feelings. The body doesn't want to change. Right, I'm not suggesting it is easy, I'm suggesting it is simple. > And it's not like the body stops these signals after a while. I have dropped 30+ pounds, always to gain it back. If you are still having the symptoms of low blood sugar that lasts for a significant period of time (> 2 weeks), this is absolutely something your doctor should look into. Regardless: the meta point here is that the body is not literally starving, it just feels like it is. Which sounds a lot like addiction: the body doesn't literally need those drugs, but brain chemistry makes it feel like it does. The study you linked to does not seem like a glowing endorsement for gastric bypass to me. Also, not that it matters, but you're talking to someone who has lost 35lbs more than a year ago, so I do have direct experience.