5 ms·

>because these sites were long known to local people, they had invariably been disturbed, if not badly looted. No kidding. I had a Spanish teacher in high scho

by Pigo 10y ago

>because these sites were long known to local people, they had invariably been disturbed, if not badly looted. No kidding. I had a Spanish teacher in high school from Peru who'd bring in artifacts he'd found in caves around his home town, his collection included a human skull he claimed was from an Andean civilization. It didn't dawn on me until years later how ludicrous it was that this man had kept this skull he'd found in a cave and then took it across the world to be handled by kids. It still had dirt inside of it! Now I wonder how many laws and customs he'd broken, and whether it was a significant enough find that much was lost by him using it as a trophy.

joering2 10y ago
I wondered how many he broke myself and could not found any laws prohibiting of transportation of ancient bones. I assume this included skulls.
- omgam 10y ago
  This is fascinating because it probably dates back to the times of medicinal uses of such. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-o...
derefr 10y ago
This sort of thing almost justifies the "Indiana Jones" style of archaeology to me: if you know that the location of a "historical site" of "great religious significance" just became public knowledge, then the clock is ticking before a bunch of idiot looters come and break all the walls and vases looking for gold, or take home random skulls to put on their desks. So, presuming you're an archaeologist and know how to quickly-and-efficiently extract and catalogue artifacts without damaging them; and presuming the country that the site belongs to has no governmental body or NGO willing to protect the site; then you may as well book the first plane ticket there, rush in, (carefully) pick up everything of value, box it all up and ship it to a museum—any museum—where it will be put under glass until the significance of the artifacts can be understood. If the locals want their history, their museum can get it back from your museum. Until then, it'll at least be protected from ending up in some foreigner's Spanish class.
- norea-armozel 10y ago
  It reminds me of how the Nag Hammadi texts were found by some local farmers in Egypt who wound up burning a few of the texts for a cooking fire without knowing that they contained the work of Gnostic Christians. I wonder how much has been lost by such careless thought.
  - nkoren 10y ago
    Or careful thought: > In 1856, General Alexander Cunningham, later director general of the archaeological survey of northern India, visited Harappa where the British engineers John and William Brunton were laying the East Indian Railway Company line connecting the cities of Karachi and Lahore. John wrote: "I was much exercised in my mind how we were to get ballast for the line of the railway". They were told of an ancient ruined city near the lines, called Brahminabad. Visiting the city, he found it full of hard well-burnt bricks, and, "convinced that there was a grand quarry for the ballast I wanted", the city of Brahminabad was reduced to ballast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation
- acqq 10y ago
  It doesn't work that way: if something wasn't looted recently you get the most of information not by taking a few "valuable" things but by carefully studying every small trace. This was known even much before the times if Indiana Jones. Surprise: the life is different from the dumbed-down movies. So you have to bring the whole team and some people to protect them. Everything else is a huge loss.
  - OJFord 10y ago
    Agreed - as I understand it, the relative and absolute positioning of pieces, and analysis of surrounding dirt, is very often more useful information than anything that can be gleaned from the piece itself.
    - 67726e 10y ago
DoodleBuggy 10y ago
You see this type of behavior all over North America too, particularly in the south and southwest where artifacts are commonly found. Looting, graverobbing, and vandalism are the biggest threats to archeological sites worldwide.
- WildUtah 10y ago
  Even in the USA, grave robbing is tolerated with only minor penalties even in serious cases. [0] There is no protection for most kinds of archaeological treasures anywhere in the world and the limited non-renewable resource of our past as a species is being steadily wiped out by yahoos for a bit of weekend drunk fun or beer money. And that doesn't even begin to address systematic ideological Moslem terrorist attacks against Palmyra, Bamiyyan, and many other historic treasures. [0]http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700182158/Overkill-or-justice-Costly-5-year-old-artifacts-case-nets-no-prison-time-and-3-suicides-but.html http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700182158/Overkill-or-jus...
  - secstate 10y ago
    Grave robbing and the destruction of historical artifacts are definitely an issue, but you should refrain from using the word Moslem, and in it's place use Muslim. The meaning is actually very different, and rather insulting in Arabic: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524 http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524 EDIT: It would appear the "insult" line is a bit of a stretch given how Arabic works, and is perhaps not really that insulting. Yet still, modern scholarship suggests the appropriate transliteration of the word from Arabic is Muslim, not Moslem.
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    I wonder why there aren't stronger laws against that. To me destroying our cultural heritage is one of the worst crimes one can commit. I'd be all for draconic punishment of destruction of historic artifacts. Is that really such a rare view?
- Pigo 10y ago
  I recall an article from maybe two years ago about a woman in the south west writing inspirational graffiti, or something of that nature, all over protected sites and rock-faces just for social media points. It was so upsetting, people were spewing fire.
trprog 10y ago
>this man had kept this skull he'd found in a cave and then took it across the world >It still had dirt inside of it This is probably because I am Australian but this jumped out at me. Australia is free of many parasites, pests, diseases etc that are common in the rest of the world. This is maintained by very strict border controls. The idea of anyone transporting some random object containing dirt into the country and not having customs officers through a fit is a shock.

by Pigo 10y ago

joering2 10y ago

I wondered how many he broke myself and could not found any laws prohibiting of transportation of ancient bones. I assume this included skulls.

omgam 10y ago
This is fascinating because it probably dates back to the times of medicinal uses of such. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-o...

derefr 10y ago

This sort of thing almost justifies the "Indiana Jones" style of archaeology to me: if you know that the location of a "historical site" of "great religious significance" just became public knowledge, then the clock is ticking before a bunch of idiot looters come and break all the walls and vases looking for gold, or take home random skulls to put on their desks. So, presuming you're an archaeologist and know how to quickly-and-efficiently extract and catalogue artifacts without damaging them; and presuming the country that the site belongs to has no governmental body or NGO willing to protect the site; then you may as well book the first plane ticket there, rush in, (carefully) pick up everything of value, box it all up and ship it to a museum—any museum—where it will be put under glass until the significance of the artifacts can be understood. If the locals want their history, their museum can get it back from your museum. Until then, it'll at least be protected from ending up in some foreigner's Spanish class.

norea-armozel 10y ago
It reminds me of how the Nag Hammadi texts were found by some local farmers in Egypt who wound up burning a few of the texts for a cooking fire without knowing that they contained the work of Gnostic Christians. I wonder how much has been lost by such careless thought.
- nkoren 10y ago
  Or careful thought: > In 1856, General Alexander Cunningham, later director general of the archaeological survey of northern India, visited Harappa where the British engineers John and William Brunton were laying the East Indian Railway Company line connecting the cities of Karachi and Lahore. John wrote: "I was much exercised in my mind how we were to get ballast for the line of the railway". They were told of an ancient ruined city near the lines, called Brahminabad. Visiting the city, he found it full of hard well-burnt bricks, and, "convinced that there was a grand quarry for the ballast I wanted", the city of Brahminabad was reduced to ballast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation
acqq 10y ago
It doesn't work that way: if something wasn't looted recently you get the most of information not by taking a few "valuable" things but by carefully studying every small trace. This was known even much before the times if Indiana Jones. Surprise: the life is different from the dumbed-down movies. So you have to bring the whole team and some people to protect them. Everything else is a huge loss.
- OJFord 10y ago
  Agreed - as I understand it, the relative and absolute positioning of pieces, and analysis of surrounding dirt, is very often more useful information than anything that can be gleaned from the piece itself.
  - 67726e 10y ago

DoodleBuggy 10y ago

You see this type of behavior all over North America too, particularly in the south and southwest where artifacts are commonly found. Looting, graverobbing, and vandalism are the biggest threats to archeological sites worldwide.

WildUtah 10y ago
Even in the USA, grave robbing is tolerated with only minor penalties even in serious cases. [0] There is no protection for most kinds of archaeological treasures anywhere in the world and the limited non-renewable resource of our past as a species is being steadily wiped out by yahoos for a bit of weekend drunk fun or beer money. And that doesn't even begin to address systematic ideological Moslem terrorist attacks against Palmyra, Bamiyyan, and many other historic treasures. [0]http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700182158/Overkill-or-justice-Costly-5-year-old-artifacts-case-nets-no-prison-time-and-3-suicides-but.html http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700182158/Overkill-or-jus...
- secstate 10y ago
  Grave robbing and the destruction of historical artifacts are definitely an issue, but you should refrain from using the word Moslem, and in it's place use Muslim. The meaning is actually very different, and rather insulting in Arabic: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524 http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524 EDIT: It would appear the "insult" line is a bit of a stretch given how Arabic works, and is perhaps not really that insulting. Yet still, modern scholarship suggests the appropriate transliteration of the word from Arabic is Muslim, not Moslem.
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  I wonder why there aren't stronger laws against that. To me destroying our cultural heritage is one of the worst crimes one can commit. I'd be all for draconic punishment of destruction of historic artifacts. Is that really such a rare view?
Pigo 10y ago
I recall an article from maybe two years ago about a woman in the south west writing inspirational graffiti, or something of that nature, all over protected sites and rock-faces just for social media points. It was so upsetting, people were spewing fire.

trprog 10y ago

>this man had kept this skull he'd found in a cave and then took it across the world >It still had dirt inside of it This is probably because I am Australian but this jumped out at me. Australia is free of many parasites, pests, diseases etc that are common in the rest of the world. This is maintained by very strict border controls. The idea of anyone transporting some random object containing dirt into the country and not having customs officers through a fit is a shock.