4 ms·

IANAL but I assume that if I purchased a tract of land and built a bridge on it, I could create it as I please, given that I would be liable for damages should

IANAL but I assume that if I purchased a tract of land and built a bridge on it, I could create it as I please, given that I would be liable for damages should the bridge break and harm somebody on my property, not unlike a slip-and-fall. I for one would prefer most vital software to be developed slowly and methodically. We insist on strict standards for our bridges and roads - why don't we do the same for our information infrastructure? Move fast and break things can break people too.

zevets 10y ago
I would prefer software infrastructure be developed rigorously as well, as I think would most people. But that will lead to regulations or at best, expensive insurance company mandated standards. But before we celebrate its demise: the side effect will also be the same ones seen in the civil engineering world: creative ideas take decades to come into existence. As you mentioned in your other comment, there was a time when railroad building was exciting, and in that time, people died doing exciting engineering. Civil engineering tools are now orders of magnitude better than they were years ago, but there hasn't been an explosion in creative structures, even at the lowest level. I also think many of the perks (ie: salary) of the software engineering industry are intimately related to the 'move fast and break things' culture. When that leaves the industry, it may be less of a good riddance than you think. This may be my perspective as an outsider though, I don't work in software. But I have considered making the jump to software engineering, because 'moving fast and break things' sounds fun. Fundamentally we agree, but I'm a pessimist.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Also agreed, but I don't think the "boringification" of civil engineering is all that bad either. I met a civil engineer recently. He is a mundane but serious professional. He has no patience for the shiny objects that the real estate developers try to distract other people with. Codes are upheld and enforced. It's easy to grumble about regulations until their reasons are forgotten. Then they get repealed and the problems come back. The mortgage crisis is a prime example. I don't think this is such a bad future for software either. Much of my job writing software for higher education involves adhering to complex policies. These policies are necessary to remain FERPA/HIPAA compliant, which are necessary for their own reasons. Playing fast and loose is taking out a debt for an uncertain future.
  - dispose13432 10y ago
    The "boringification" of computers will bring us back to the 70s. If we have to prove _everything_ on your computer, from your calculator or Pokemon, how much do you think a license of windows will cost? $250,000? Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/Minix will be dead (no one to sponsor certification and then put it in the public). Crazy "best-practices" (change passwords every couple days, password must include symbols, letters, numbers, upper-case and lower-case in a random order, but be no shorter or longer than eight characters) Must have a full team of lawyers to prove that everything done fit the letter of the law, and that any hacks are not your responsibility "Shinyness" is what allows you to have free VSCode and Atom. Sure, I miss the 70s when you could get a text editor measured in bytes (but, btw, electron is probably more secure than 70s unix) but I definitely like the cost/convenience of modern software.
icebraining 10y ago
I wonder what's the programming equivalent of interior designer[1] or nail technician[2] and how much time until one will be required to spend a few thousand bucks and a couple of years in some bootcamp to be allowed to publish them. [1] http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/commercial_interior_designers.html http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/commercial_interior_desig... [2] http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/cosmetology_barbering.html http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/cosmetology_barbering.htm...
- jaclaz 10y ago
  >how much time until one will be required to spend a few thousand bucks and a couple of years in some bootcamp to be allowed to publish them. ... risking anyway to end up in the "B Ark" ... http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Adams.htm http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Adams.htm (obligatory reference to Douglas Adams, nail technicians and interior designers are not so different from phone sanitizers and hairdressers)
dpark 10y ago
> IANAL but I assume that if I purchased a tract of land and built a bridge on it, I could create it as I please, given that I would be liable for damages should the bridge break and harm somebody on my property, not unlike a slip-and-fall. Depends on where you buy your land, most likely. If you buy in an unincorporated territory, you might get away with whatever if there are no county or state regulations. If you're buying in a city/town/village, you can expect that basically any construction project will be subject to code requirements and permitting. To get permitted in such a situation would typically require an appropriately engineered design with signoff from a civil PE.

zevets 10y ago

I would prefer software infrastructure be developed rigorously as well, as I think would most people. But that will lead to regulations or at best, expensive insurance company mandated standards. But before we celebrate its demise: the side effect will also be the same ones seen in the civil engineering world: creative ideas take decades to come into existence. As you mentioned in your other comment, there was a time when railroad building was exciting, and in that time, people died doing exciting engineering. Civil engineering tools are now orders of magnitude better than they were years ago, but there hasn't been an explosion in creative structures, even at the lowest level. I also think many of the perks (ie: salary) of the software engineering industry are intimately related to the 'move fast and break things' culture. When that leaves the industry, it may be less of a good riddance than you think. This may be my perspective as an outsider though, I don't work in software. But I have considered making the jump to software engineering, because 'moving fast and break things' sounds fun. Fundamentally we agree, but I'm a pessimist.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Also agreed, but I don't think the "boringification" of civil engineering is all that bad either. I met a civil engineer recently. He is a mundane but serious professional. He has no patience for the shiny objects that the real estate developers try to distract other people with. Codes are upheld and enforced. It's easy to grumble about regulations until their reasons are forgotten. Then they get repealed and the problems come back. The mortgage crisis is a prime example. I don't think this is such a bad future for software either. Much of my job writing software for higher education involves adhering to complex policies. These policies are necessary to remain FERPA/HIPAA compliant, which are necessary for their own reasons. Playing fast and loose is taking out a debt for an uncertain future.
- dispose13432 10y ago
  The "boringification" of computers will bring us back to the 70s. If we have to prove _everything_ on your computer, from your calculator or Pokemon, how much do you think a license of windows will cost? $250,000? Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/Minix will be dead (no one to sponsor certification and then put it in the public). Crazy "best-practices" (change passwords every couple days, password must include symbols, letters, numbers, upper-case and lower-case in a random order, but be no shorter or longer than eight characters) Must have a full team of lawyers to prove that everything done fit the letter of the law, and that any hacks are not your responsibility "Shinyness" is what allows you to have free VSCode and Atom. Sure, I miss the 70s when you could get a text editor measured in bytes (but, btw, electron is probably more secure than 70s unix) but I definitely like the cost/convenience of modern software.

icebraining 10y ago

I wonder what's the programming equivalent of interior designer[1] or nail technician[2] and how much time until one will be required to spend a few thousand bucks and a couple of years in some bootcamp to be allowed to publish them. [1] http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/commercial_interior_designers.html http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/commercial_interior_desig... [2] http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/cosmetology_barbering.html http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/cosmetology_barbering.htm...

jaclaz 10y ago
>how much time until one will be required to spend a few thousand bucks and a couple of years in some bootcamp to be allowed to publish them. ... risking anyway to end up in the "B Ark" ... http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Adams.htm http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Adams.htm (obligatory reference to Douglas Adams, nail technicians and interior designers are not so different from phone sanitizers and hairdressers)

dpark 10y ago

> IANAL but I assume that if I purchased a tract of land and built a bridge on it, I could create it as I please, given that I would be liable for damages should the bridge break and harm somebody on my property, not unlike a slip-and-fall. Depends on where you buy your land, most likely. If you buy in an unincorporated territory, you might get away with whatever if there are no county or state regulations. If you're buying in a city/town/village, you can expect that basically any construction project will be subject to code requirements and permitting. To get permitted in such a situation would typically require an appropriately engineered design with signoff from a civil PE.