4 ms·

I agree with your diagnosis, but I fear the knee jerk reaction to solve it with government programs. In my mind, we need to do more lateral thinking on what can

I agree with your diagnosis, but I fear the knee jerk reaction to solve it with government programs. In my mind, we need to do more lateral thinking on what can make value for the economy and why.

fullshark 10y ago
What's a better idea than gov't programs for adult education / job training? Most companies aren't interested in investing the resources to retrain employees unless training lasts a few months at most. Even market solutions will require a lot of gov't interference to work imo (things like job "mortgages" i.e. student loans for adults).
- randomthrowr88 10y ago
  > Most companies aren't interested in investing the resources to retrain employees unless training lasts a few months at most. > Even market solutions will require a lot of gov't interference to work imo (things like job "mortgages" i.e. student loans for adults). Ah, so more socializing of the costs, privatizing of the profits.
- noobiemcfoob 10y ago
  I think my main point is we can't keep solving this problem with "more training and education" (regardless of where it is coming from). An individual can only learn so much and only cares so much about whatever widget you put before them. What we need is more work the unskilled but capable can do with little new learning. The best thing for education and job training is for an individual to have a vision of what it is they're working towards. Teach men to build boats by loving the sea, yadda, yadda.
- nickff 10y ago
  Job training and retraining programs don't work very well, which is why you see so many interviews with people who have done 5-10 of them. There are a number of studies that show this, and none (that I am aware of) which demonstrate good efficacy (and I would expect the programs to trumpet the latter result). Perhaps some sort of improved retraining program would work, but I don't think we should be dumping money into the existing programs. I should also add that I would very much like these programs to work, and am very disappointed that they don't, as I believe that skilled jobs help the worker lead a happier, more fulfilling life, as well as helping the people who benefit from the work product.
  - throwaway45321 10y ago
    > as I believe that skilled jobs help the worker lead a happier, more fulfilling life, as well as helping the people who benefit from the work product I can't really speak to the second assertion here, but I wanted to chime in from the other side of the first. I'm a mid level developer (late twenties) and if I could find a job that was 'routine' that paid what I make now, and kept me from having to deal with the public, I would take it in a heartbeat. Programming is interesting, sure, but the days that it's an absolute grind are awful. I'd gladly take a job that would let me stay out of the way of the people who are very much passionate about our shared profession.
    - ashark 10y ago
      Second. Time flexibility and total compensation are the only things that make software development more appealing to me than any number of low-skill jobs. They're biggies, but the job itself is energy-draining and inherently unhealthy (yes you can compensate with exercise, but that's the point—you have to) at best. I'd take one of those sorts of jobs where you can read/write/study during copious down time, or a semi-creative job with a fair amount of gross motor skill work (certain construction and landscaping roles, for example) over it any day, if the only concern were the work itself.
    - douche 10y ago
      Seriously. If I could find somebody who would pay me what I make now to dig ditches or cut trees, I'd be gone so fast your head would spin. Mankind was not made to sit in asinine status meetings and conduct email wars day in and day out.
- stephenbez 10y ago
  If you are interested in learning more about the history and failure of US job training I recommend "The Job Training Charade". Essentially it is one of those policies that sounds good and appeals to both sides of the aisle. However decades of experience with different programs has shown it doesn't work. There is even a study mentioned in the book showing a statistically significant negative impact of job training on employment. https://www.amazon.com/Training-Charade-Collection-Technology-Work/dp/0801489512 https://www.amazon.com/Training-Charade-Collection-Technolog...
- hannele 10y ago
  Companies should have an incentive to invest in the training of their employees - it seems they're always claiming that the people they're looking for just don't exist, and it comes off like they want people to emerge from the head of Athena fully-formed and ready to work to the company's specific needs. It doesn't need to be the whole solution - regular education and training still plays a big part, because many skills are general enough - but there should be some responsibility for a company to help develop the employees that it needs. (Maybe through tax incentives or what-have-you.)

I agree with your diagnosis, but I fear the knee jerk reaction to solve it with government programs. In my mind, we need to do more lateral thinking on what can make value for the economy and why.

fullshark 10y ago

What's a better idea than gov't programs for adult education / job training? Most companies aren't interested in investing the resources to retrain employees unless training lasts a few months at most. Even market solutions will require a lot of gov't interference to work imo (things like job "mortgages" i.e. student loans for adults).

randomthrowr88 10y ago
> Most companies aren't interested in investing the resources to retrain employees unless training lasts a few months at most. > Even market solutions will require a lot of gov't interference to work imo (things like job "mortgages" i.e. student loans for adults). Ah, so more socializing of the costs, privatizing of the profits.
noobiemcfoob 10y ago
I think my main point is we can't keep solving this problem with "more training and education" (regardless of where it is coming from). An individual can only learn so much and only cares so much about whatever widget you put before them. What we need is more work the unskilled but capable can do with little new learning. The best thing for education and job training is for an individual to have a vision of what it is they're working towards. Teach men to build boats by loving the sea, yadda, yadda.
nickff 10y ago
Job training and retraining programs don't work very well, which is why you see so many interviews with people who have done 5-10 of them. There are a number of studies that show this, and none (that I am aware of) which demonstrate good efficacy (and I would expect the programs to trumpet the latter result). Perhaps some sort of improved retraining program would work, but I don't think we should be dumping money into the existing programs. I should also add that I would very much like these programs to work, and am very disappointed that they don't, as I believe that skilled jobs help the worker lead a happier, more fulfilling life, as well as helping the people who benefit from the work product.
- throwaway45321 10y ago
  > as I believe that skilled jobs help the worker lead a happier, more fulfilling life, as well as helping the people who benefit from the work product I can't really speak to the second assertion here, but I wanted to chime in from the other side of the first. I'm a mid level developer (late twenties) and if I could find a job that was 'routine' that paid what I make now, and kept me from having to deal with the public, I would take it in a heartbeat. Programming is interesting, sure, but the days that it's an absolute grind are awful. I'd gladly take a job that would let me stay out of the way of the people who are very much passionate about our shared profession.
  - ashark 10y ago
    Second. Time flexibility and total compensation are the only things that make software development more appealing to me than any number of low-skill jobs. They're biggies, but the job itself is energy-draining and inherently unhealthy (yes you can compensate with exercise, but that's the point—you have to) at best. I'd take one of those sorts of jobs where you can read/write/study during copious down time, or a semi-creative job with a fair amount of gross motor skill work (certain construction and landscaping roles, for example) over it any day, if the only concern were the work itself.
  - douche 10y ago
    Seriously. If I could find somebody who would pay me what I make now to dig ditches or cut trees, I'd be gone so fast your head would spin. Mankind was not made to sit in asinine status meetings and conduct email wars day in and day out.
stephenbez 10y ago
If you are interested in learning more about the history and failure of US job training I recommend "The Job Training Charade". Essentially it is one of those policies that sounds good and appeals to both sides of the aisle. However decades of experience with different programs has shown it doesn't work. There is even a study mentioned in the book showing a statistically significant negative impact of job training on employment. https://www.amazon.com/Training-Charade-Collection-Technology-Work/dp/0801489512 https://www.amazon.com/Training-Charade-Collection-Technolog...
hannele 10y ago
Companies should have an incentive to invest in the training of their employees - it seems they're always claiming that the people they're looking for just don't exist, and it comes off like they want people to emerge from the head of Athena fully-formed and ready to work to the company's specific needs. It doesn't need to be the whole solution - regular education and training still plays a big part, because many skills are general enough - but there should be some responsibility for a company to help develop the employees that it needs. (Maybe through tax incentives or what-have-you.)