4 ms·

That's only true if you define "middle-class" as white collar. Welders make decent money, 35-60k on average for bog standard fabrication work. Easy to double th

That's only true if you define "middle-class" as white collar. Welders make decent money, 35-60k on average for bog standard fabrication work. Easy to double those figures working for the oil and gas industries. Welders that can cert to Nuclear industry standards can easily triple those figure, and underwater welders can make over $300k in a year.

chrisseaton 10y ago
> That's only true if you define "middle-class" as white collar. Isn't that how everyone defines it? University educated, cultured, white collar workers? To me, middle-class means a doctor, lawyer, teacher, regulated professionals, things like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22gCw4iDdu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22gCw4iDdu4
- knieveltech 10y ago
  No, or it's growing less common outside of academic circles. It is frequently used (especially in popular media) to denote little beyond personal income. See dragonwriter's comment for a thumbnail critique of the practice.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  Folks who worked in manufacturing plants like automobile factories were considered part of the middle class, before neoliberal globalism reduced their earning potential and employment opportunities.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    For a while, people who worked in manufacturing jobs, saved and invested surplus income over a career, etc., could often reach the classic capitalist-economy definition of middle class (neither predominantly dependent on wage labor nor having enough capital to meet support needs plus accumulate more capital purely by renting others labor to apply to the capital) by late in their career. That is no longer as attainable as it once was. (Neoliberal globalism is part of the problem, but in the US specifically domestic tax reform to shift the burden from upper income earners to lower-to-middle-income workers over time, particularly the enormous shift under Reagan, is more specifically the problem, and not really connected to neoliberal globalization except that there is some overlap in political support.)
    - opo 10y ago
      >...but in the US specifically domestic tax reform to shift the burden from upper income earners to lower-to-middle-income workers over time, particularly the enormous shift under Reagan, is more specifically the problem Simply not true. The number of people who pay zero income taxes has never been higher due to EITC etc. The top 1% paid about 19% of federal taxes in 1980 and about 39% in 2014. http://www.ntu.org/foundation/page/who-pays-income-taxes http://www.ntu.org/foundation/page/who-pays-income-taxes
    - knieveltech 10y ago
      I think you're overstating the importance of tax rates here. They certainly play a role but interest rates are a much more critical driver. For a period of time it was possible to make 7-15 percent interest on certificates of deposit.
- ska 10y ago
  Although typical usage of middle class includes professionals, it has not historically been equivalent. It is a social definition, and not purely economic. It would typically also include some skilled trades, managers, civil service, etc. It is usually more effective to think about this as being more about social capital than monetary capital.
dragonwriter 10y ago
"Welder's generally aren't middle class regardless of income" is true if you define middle class in the way it traditionally is in relation to capitalist and modern mixed economies, that is, the middle class are those for whom both capital holdings and labor provide a substantial share of their income, usually because they derive the bulk of their income.by applying Thier own labor to.their own capital (though the middle class also includes people working at wage labor for other capitalists who nonetheless have substantial-enough personal capital holdings to derive a significant share of their income from those holdings.) Some welders -- those who own their own businesses or who have very substantial savings and investment as a result of long career -- might be middle class, but most (even if at or above middle income) are working class, deriving their income predominantly from wage labor. Economic class isn't a categorization of income level, it's a qualitative categorization of the manner in which one derives income. (It's become popular to use middle class to refer to some middle income segment largely as a political way of masking the near-total collapse of the classical "middle class" and polarization of economic class into working class and capitalist class with very little of the classic "middle class" left. But people like to feel like the middle class exists and is attainable, so calling the upper income segment of the working class "middle class" helps make people feel better. It also serves the capitalist interest in creating separation of identity and preventing solidarity within the working class.)
- notahacker 10y ago
  I don't think definitions of "middle class" which refer solely to proportion of income derived from capital have ever really been more mainstream or useful than "white-collar"/"blue-collar" or salary-range based distinctions. Even Marxists whose entire economic philosophy is based on capital relations are usually happy to bracket wage-compensated managers alongside smallholders in the petit-bourgeoisie on the basis that they represent the interests of capital as opposed to because they actually own any. The relevance of class distinctions which place Uber drivers - whose income is derived from applying labour to their own capital - in a higher economic class than doctors or SV programmers [who haven't exercised their options] is pretty minimal, and it isn't a capitalist conspiracy that other definitions of "middle class" are generally preferred.

chrisseaton 10y ago

> That's only true if you define "middle-class" as white collar. Isn't that how everyone defines it? University educated, cultured, white collar workers? To me, middle-class means a doctor, lawyer, teacher, regulated professionals, things like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22gCw4iDdu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22gCw4iDdu4

knieveltech 10y ago
No, or it's growing less common outside of academic circles. It is frequently used (especially in popular media) to denote little beyond personal income. See dragonwriter's comment for a thumbnail critique of the practice.
wavefunction 10y ago
Folks who worked in manufacturing plants like automobile factories were considered part of the middle class, before neoliberal globalism reduced their earning potential and employment opportunities.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  For a while, people who worked in manufacturing jobs, saved and invested surplus income over a career, etc., could often reach the classic capitalist-economy definition of middle class (neither predominantly dependent on wage labor nor having enough capital to meet support needs plus accumulate more capital purely by renting others labor to apply to the capital) by late in their career. That is no longer as attainable as it once was. (Neoliberal globalism is part of the problem, but in the US specifically domestic tax reform to shift the burden from upper income earners to lower-to-middle-income workers over time, particularly the enormous shift under Reagan, is more specifically the problem, and not really connected to neoliberal globalization except that there is some overlap in political support.)
  - opo 10y ago
    >...but in the US specifically domestic tax reform to shift the burden from upper income earners to lower-to-middle-income workers over time, particularly the enormous shift under Reagan, is more specifically the problem Simply not true. The number of people who pay zero income taxes has never been higher due to EITC etc. The top 1% paid about 19% of federal taxes in 1980 and about 39% in 2014. http://www.ntu.org/foundation/page/who-pays-income-taxes http://www.ntu.org/foundation/page/who-pays-income-taxes
  - knieveltech 10y ago
    I think you're overstating the importance of tax rates here. They certainly play a role but interest rates are a much more critical driver. For a period of time it was possible to make 7-15 percent interest on certificates of deposit.
ska 10y ago
Although typical usage of middle class includes professionals, it has not historically been equivalent. It is a social definition, and not purely economic. It would typically also include some skilled trades, managers, civil service, etc. It is usually more effective to think about this as being more about social capital than monetary capital.

dragonwriter 10y ago

"Welder's generally aren't middle class regardless of income" is true if you define middle class in the way it traditionally is in relation to capitalist and modern mixed economies, that is, the middle class are those for whom both capital holdings and labor provide a substantial share of their income, usually because they derive the bulk of their income.by applying Thier own labor to.their own capital (though the middle class also includes people working at wage labor for other capitalists who nonetheless have substantial-enough personal capital holdings to derive a significant share of their income from those holdings.) Some welders -- those who own their own businesses or who have very substantial savings and investment as a result of long career -- might be middle class, but most (even if at or above middle income) are working class, deriving their income predominantly from wage labor. Economic class isn't a categorization of income level, it's a qualitative categorization of the manner in which one derives income. (It's become popular to use middle class to refer to some middle income segment largely as a political way of masking the near-total collapse of the classical "middle class" and polarization of economic class into working class and capitalist class with very little of the classic "middle class" left. But people like to feel like the middle class exists and is attainable, so calling the upper income segment of the working class "middle class" helps make people feel better. It also serves the capitalist interest in creating separation of identity and preventing solidarity within the working class.)

notahacker 10y ago
I don't think definitions of "middle class" which refer solely to proportion of income derived from capital have ever really been more mainstream or useful than "white-collar"/"blue-collar" or salary-range based distinctions. Even Marxists whose entire economic philosophy is based on capital relations are usually happy to bracket wage-compensated managers alongside smallholders in the petit-bourgeoisie on the basis that they represent the interests of capital as opposed to because they actually own any. The relevance of class distinctions which place Uber drivers - whose income is derived from applying labour to their own capital - in a higher economic class than doctors or SV programmers [who haven't exercised their options] is pretty minimal, and it isn't a capitalist conspiracy that other definitions of "middle class" are generally preferred.