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I'm very interested in this. My own intuition says basic income won't work, but it'd sure be nice if it did.

by thescribe 10y ago

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
quickben 10y ago
Eh, 30% of all income is capital gains income, so passive income does work for the top 1% without problems.
- cperciva 10y ago
  The majority of capital income flows not to the super-rich, but rather to the pensions of the upper-middle-class. Also, most income earned by the top 1% of income earners is employment income; many professionals (doctors / dentists / engineers / lawyers / accountants) fall into that top 1% of incomes. The working-age individuals whose income is primarily from capital are generally in the top 0.1%.
  - ragazzina 10y ago
    > Also, most income earned by the top 1% of income earners is employment income; many professionals (doctors / dentists / engineers / lawyers / accountants) fall into that top 1% of incomes. I am not American and I don't know if doctors and lawyers are usually considered 1 percenters, but Wikipedia says "Data on the minimum yearly income to be considered among the 1% vary per source, ranging from about $500,000 to $1.3 million."[1] It is my understanding that half a million dollar is not a common engineer or doctor income, I am not sure most income earned by 1 percenters is employment income. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_the_99%25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_the_99%25
  - filoeleven 10y ago
    You're right that the majority of capital income does not go to the super-rich, however they do get a very large slice of the pie nonetheless: > In 2015, according to PSZ, the richest 1% of people in America received 20.2% of all the income in the nation. Ten points of that 20.2% came from equity income, net interest, housing rents, and the capital component of mixed income. Which is to say, 10% of all national income is paid out to the 1% as capital income. > Even if you exclude the capital component of mixed income (since it is connected to work even if the income is not from labor) and housing rents (since these are imputed to homeowners rather than paid to them as cash), that still means that, from equity income and interest alone, the top 1% receives 7.5% of the national income without having to work for it. Put another way: the average person in the top 1% receives a UBI equal to 7.5 times the average income in the country. That last line is key. Even if most of the income of the 1% is not passive, they still receive a massive amount of passive income. Source: https://medium.com/@MattBruenig/the-ubi-already-exists-for-the-1-d3a49fad0580#.qkob80xzc https://medium.com/@MattBruenig/the-ubi-already-exists-for-t...
- dispose13432 10y ago
  EDIT Sorry. My mistake
  - cperciva 10y ago
    I'm pretty sure it's actually a typo. Approximately 30% of income is capital income, but that includes dividends and interest payments, not just capital gains.
lisivka 10y ago
Basic income works for limited period of time. If you have some savings, you can try it yourself: you pay money, money gone, it works. The problem is how to make it profitable. IMHO, Finland hope that with basic income they will spend less on prisons or social workers in long term. IMHO, main risk for basic income is exponential growth of money eaters in long run (>50 years).
- ptaipale 10y ago
  We can't possibly be spending less on prisons in long term. Sentencing is very lenient in Finland for everything (except tax fraud and drug offences, including the re-sale of chewing tobacco).

I'm very interested in this. My own intuition says basic income won't work, but it'd sure be nice if it did.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

quickben 10y ago

Eh, 30% of all income is capital gains income, so passive income does work for the top 1% without problems.

cperciva 10y ago
The majority of capital income flows not to the super-rich, but rather to the pensions of the upper-middle-class. Also, most income earned by the top 1% of income earners is employment income; many professionals (doctors / dentists / engineers / lawyers / accountants) fall into that top 1% of incomes. The working-age individuals whose income is primarily from capital are generally in the top 0.1%.
- ragazzina 10y ago
  > Also, most income earned by the top 1% of income earners is employment income; many professionals (doctors / dentists / engineers / lawyers / accountants) fall into that top 1% of incomes. I am not American and I don't know if doctors and lawyers are usually considered 1 percenters, but Wikipedia says "Data on the minimum yearly income to be considered among the 1% vary per source, ranging from about $500,000 to $1.3 million."[1] It is my understanding that half a million dollar is not a common engineer or doctor income, I am not sure most income earned by 1 percenters is employment income. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_the_99%25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_the_99%25
- filoeleven 10y ago
  You're right that the majority of capital income does not go to the super-rich, however they do get a very large slice of the pie nonetheless: > In 2015, according to PSZ, the richest 1% of people in America received 20.2% of all the income in the nation. Ten points of that 20.2% came from equity income, net interest, housing rents, and the capital component of mixed income. Which is to say, 10% of all national income is paid out to the 1% as capital income. > Even if you exclude the capital component of mixed income (since it is connected to work even if the income is not from labor) and housing rents (since these are imputed to homeowners rather than paid to them as cash), that still means that, from equity income and interest alone, the top 1% receives 7.5% of the national income without having to work for it. Put another way: the average person in the top 1% receives a UBI equal to 7.5 times the average income in the country. That last line is key. Even if most of the income of the 1% is not passive, they still receive a massive amount of passive income. Source: https://medium.com/@MattBruenig/the-ubi-already-exists-for-the-1-d3a49fad0580#.qkob80xzc https://medium.com/@MattBruenig/the-ubi-already-exists-for-t...
dispose13432 10y ago
EDIT Sorry. My mistake
- cperciva 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure it's actually a typo. Approximately 30% of income is capital income, but that includes dividends and interest payments, not just capital gains.

lisivka 10y ago

Basic income works for limited period of time. If you have some savings, you can try it yourself: you pay money, money gone, it works. The problem is how to make it profitable. IMHO, Finland hope that with basic income they will spend less on prisons or social workers in long term. IMHO, main risk for basic income is exponential growth of money eaters in long run (>50 years).

ptaipale 10y ago
We can't possibly be spending less on prisons in long term. Sentencing is very lenient in Finland for everything (except tax fraud and drug offences, including the re-sale of chewing tobacco).