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Make no mistake. Switzerland is not comparable to say France, Germany or Italy. The fabric and demographics of western european societies are changing rapidly a

Make no mistake. Switzerland is not comparable to say France, Germany or Italy. The fabric and demographics of western european societies are changing rapidly and wages in France, Germany, Italy are low compared to the US. And it is only going to continue to go downwards from here. As a rule of thumb: yes, the poorest 25% are better of in Europe, everyone else is probably better of in the US. Disclosure: grew up in Germany and over the past 20 years, i have lived in NYC, Boston, Munich, Geneva, Bucharest.

alkonaut 10y ago
I don't think there would be much difference to her story had she lived in e.g. Stockholm instead of Zurich. I make a normal software dev salary, after 13 years in Stockholm I make around $90k, and pay around $30k in (income) taxes. For that I get healthcare, 480 days paid leave per child (to share between parents), free education for the kids (including daycare from age 1). I don't worry about retiring. I could probably make more money in (parts of) the US, even after paying for healthcare, daycare, college, pensions, parental leave, 6 weeks a year off etc. But still I wouldn't say that would make me better off - mostly because of culture - it would be career suicide to take a year off with each child in the US, even if I could afford it. It would also seem weird that I had to drop the kids off at 8 and leave to pick them up at 4pm, for 7 years...
- benmarten 10y ago
  The key difference is that in most western European countries you are forced to participate in that socialist system, in America you are definitely more free and probably have the best opportunities in the world. I don't need more! Thank you :)
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    I think That's simply not true: every country has taxes and in every democracy there will be around as many people who would like lower taxes as there are people who would prefer higher taxes. Whether the income tax is 15, 20 or 30% doesn't change that. If you want low taxes, the US really isn't the place to be either. The caricature of Western European countries as socialist dystopia is usually only based in ignorance or disinformation.
  - disordinary 10y ago
    The gap between the wealthy and poor in the US and the opportunities provided are so extreme that even though you theoretically have more opportunities the reality is you have less. In more left leaning countries you are guaranteed a high quality education and to be healthy, you can't make that guaranty in parts of the US unfortunately. But, you shouldn't make the mistake of viewing Europe as one whole, just like others shouldn't make the same mistake about the US. As in the US there are some states which are more socialist and others which are less, in Europe there are some countries which are more right wing than others. People in Europe are free to move if their ideology doesn't reflect their home, or they can vote for change as their governments tend to be proportional.
  - empath75 10y ago
    Define 'you'. A black kid that grew up in the projects? Or a middle class white kid in the suburbs?
dasil003 10y ago
I grew up in the US and Brazil, and over the past 20 years have lived in Minneapolis, Santa Fe, San Francisco, Brasilia and London. I know where you're coming from, the US has by far the highest wage to cost of living ratio, and it seems to have the cheapest consumer and luxury goods by far. An aspirational materialistic lifestyle is far more accessible to the middle class in America than anywhere else. That said, does this equate to happiness? For instance when I lived in London, I was paid less and my money didn't go as far, but I was able to live without a car, enjoy tons of free museums and a lot more accessible culture in general, and as a family man had a lot less stress about health care with the NHS. I realize that if you have no economic opportunity that easily trumps lifestyle considerations, and Europe, especially southern Europe is facing some major challenges, but I still think Europe has a lot of qualities that the US could learn from.
- jernfrost 10y ago
  Money in the US only seems to go far when you look at consumer products. And of course housing is cheap as there is lots of cheap land. The problem for any highly automated society is that while consumer goods fall in price, services go the opposite direction. This is were the big problem is in the US. Lawyers, doctors, dentists, university, medical care, medication, child care etc all those things are typically a lot more expensive in the US. What does it matter if you can afford twice as many iPhones or flat screens in the US, if you are economically ruined once you get a serious disease like cancer or you can't afford to send your kids to a decent university? I've contemplated the wealth difference between the US and my home country Norway many times, and I've always found it very hard to compare because you don't live the same way. I could afford a bigger house and car in the US, given the price level of those things there. Yet concluding that I am richer is hard. American houses tend to be more cheaply built, with poorer insulation. So it is always an apple and pear comparison. I can buy more stuff in the US, but my money would not go as far when abroad. Stuff is more expensive in Norway, but salaries are also higher so you have more purchase power when you travel. And Norwegian spend more time enjoying vacations than Americans. So it depends on what you want. Do you want stuff or leisure? Also how do you put a price on the feeling of safety and and stress free environment. You got an extensive welfare system that will be there for you if anything should happen to you or your family. In the US you never know. You don't have to worry about crime. I noticed an American policeman visiting Scandinavia to learn about various Scandinavian policing methods. The first odd statement I noticed him say was "people don't look over their shoulders here. It looks like they don't worry anything bad is going to happen." If this is the way people live in the US, I got to say, thanks but no thanks.
disordinary 10y ago
I think in a future with high unemployment due to automation European countries, the former soviet block countries, and countries like New Zealand and Australia could fair better. A history of socialism means they will be more receptive of concepts like UBI. I also disagree that the poor parts of Europe are better off than the poor parts of the US, although I haven't been to the poor parts of the US. The poorest parts of the Baltic countries are very poor, with some older neighborhoods lacking facilities like running water and sewerage, very high unemployment and very low wages.

alkonaut 10y ago

I don't think there would be much difference to her story had she lived in e.g. Stockholm instead of Zurich. I make a normal software dev salary, after 13 years in Stockholm I make around $90k, and pay around $30k in (income) taxes. For that I get healthcare, 480 days paid leave per child (to share between parents), free education for the kids (including daycare from age 1). I don't worry about retiring. I could probably make more money in (parts of) the US, even after paying for healthcare, daycare, college, pensions, parental leave, 6 weeks a year off etc. But still I wouldn't say that would make me better off - mostly because of culture - it would be career suicide to take a year off with each child in the US, even if I could afford it. It would also seem weird that I had to drop the kids off at 8 and leave to pick them up at 4pm, for 7 years...

benmarten 10y ago
The key difference is that in most western European countries you are forced to participate in that socialist system, in America you are definitely more free and probably have the best opportunities in the world. I don't need more! Thank you :)
- alkonaut 10y ago
  I think That's simply not true: every country has taxes and in every democracy there will be around as many people who would like lower taxes as there are people who would prefer higher taxes. Whether the income tax is 15, 20 or 30% doesn't change that. If you want low taxes, the US really isn't the place to be either. The caricature of Western European countries as socialist dystopia is usually only based in ignorance or disinformation.
- disordinary 10y ago
  The gap between the wealthy and poor in the US and the opportunities provided are so extreme that even though you theoretically have more opportunities the reality is you have less. In more left leaning countries you are guaranteed a high quality education and to be healthy, you can't make that guaranty in parts of the US unfortunately. But, you shouldn't make the mistake of viewing Europe as one whole, just like others shouldn't make the same mistake about the US. As in the US there are some states which are more socialist and others which are less, in Europe there are some countries which are more right wing than others. People in Europe are free to move if their ideology doesn't reflect their home, or they can vote for change as their governments tend to be proportional.
- empath75 10y ago
  Define 'you'. A black kid that grew up in the projects? Or a middle class white kid in the suburbs?

dasil003 10y ago

I grew up in the US and Brazil, and over the past 20 years have lived in Minneapolis, Santa Fe, San Francisco, Brasilia and London. I know where you're coming from, the US has by far the highest wage to cost of living ratio, and it seems to have the cheapest consumer and luxury goods by far. An aspirational materialistic lifestyle is far more accessible to the middle class in America than anywhere else. That said, does this equate to happiness? For instance when I lived in London, I was paid less and my money didn't go as far, but I was able to live without a car, enjoy tons of free museums and a lot more accessible culture in general, and as a family man had a lot less stress about health care with the NHS. I realize that if you have no economic opportunity that easily trumps lifestyle considerations, and Europe, especially southern Europe is facing some major challenges, but I still think Europe has a lot of qualities that the US could learn from.

jernfrost 10y ago
Money in the US only seems to go far when you look at consumer products. And of course housing is cheap as there is lots of cheap land. The problem for any highly automated society is that while consumer goods fall in price, services go the opposite direction. This is were the big problem is in the US. Lawyers, doctors, dentists, university, medical care, medication, child care etc all those things are typically a lot more expensive in the US. What does it matter if you can afford twice as many iPhones or flat screens in the US, if you are economically ruined once you get a serious disease like cancer or you can't afford to send your kids to a decent university? I've contemplated the wealth difference between the US and my home country Norway many times, and I've always found it very hard to compare because you don't live the same way. I could afford a bigger house and car in the US, given the price level of those things there. Yet concluding that I am richer is hard. American houses tend to be more cheaply built, with poorer insulation. So it is always an apple and pear comparison. I can buy more stuff in the US, but my money would not go as far when abroad. Stuff is more expensive in Norway, but salaries are also higher so you have more purchase power when you travel. And Norwegian spend more time enjoying vacations than Americans. So it depends on what you want. Do you want stuff or leisure? Also how do you put a price on the feeling of safety and and stress free environment. You got an extensive welfare system that will be there for you if anything should happen to you or your family. In the US you never know. You don't have to worry about crime. I noticed an American policeman visiting Scandinavia to learn about various Scandinavian policing methods. The first odd statement I noticed him say was "people don't look over their shoulders here. It looks like they don't worry anything bad is going to happen." If this is the way people live in the US, I got to say, thanks but no thanks.

disordinary 10y ago

I think in a future with high unemployment due to automation European countries, the former soviet block countries, and countries like New Zealand and Australia could fair better. A history of socialism means they will be more receptive of concepts like UBI. I also disagree that the poor parts of Europe are better off than the poor parts of the US, although I haven't been to the poor parts of the US. The poorest parts of the Baltic countries are very poor, with some older neighborhoods lacking facilities like running water and sewerage, very high unemployment and very low wages.