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Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)
- JumpCrisscross 10y agoI lived in Switzerland and now America. I take long, relaxing lunches - it's a good time, midday, to reset. I also take ample "vacation" (in quotes because I'm reachable within an hour or two by phone and email but still out having fun). These parts, I keep, albeit with adaptation. I remember Switzerland's "nothing changes so do your duty" attitude. That is caustic when the powerful feel they can reputationally and thus permanently destroy the less powerful. The churn and disruption of American culture is healthier. And, for what it's worth, I prefer New York's mix of old and new architecture to Zürich's centuries-old skyline. My takeaway from growing up multiculturally is that while there are some cultures that are better at most modern tasks than others, there are multiple cultures differently enabled--each competently, in its own right--for the modern world. These multiple optima perform certain facets, e.g. teamwork or nonlinear social disruption, differently and differently ably. Humanity benefits from this diversity of approaches.
- bsbechtel 10y agoBest comment in this thread
- languagewars 10y agoGiven the population of Zurich, I've always comparing it to Boston to be fair. In that context Zurich is the mix with modern architecture. Boston has done nothing and then a big nothing for my entire life, only in the last 5 years does the seaport look like a part of Zurich, with actual cranes and construction workers.
- jayd16 10y agoIs there any reason we can't demand worker benefits and continue to keep blackballing illegal?
- rb2k_ 10y agoSame here. Grew up and started working in Germany, moved to the US (First Cambridge, now Menlo Park). I feel the same. To me it seems like this: - If you want to mainly enjoy things outside of work and just see it as a way to finance those other things, the US might not be the best place. - If you enjoy the work you're doing and want to work with other motivated people that are great at what they do: the US makes it a LOT easier. Especially as an Engineer, the recognition and possibilities are vastly higher. I haven't seen a company in Germany that does a successful dual ladder system. I also haven't seen one that isn't riddled with MBA grads that mainly push Jira tickets around. Even smaller companies seems to think that's a necessity. I'm sure there are some examples that make it work, but it's seemingly a lot harder to find them.
- mvdwoord 10y agoI have worked a lot in international teams with many different cultures, but predominantly US. Being born in NL and based in DE currently, it has always amazed me what a low standard of living my american colleagues had compared to us. The elections provided me some more insight into the debate surrounding Bernie Sanders' plans and I just can't understand the seeming lack of understanding of how nice it is to have true (imho) quality of life. Free time, insurance, working roughly 35 hours a week, fresh air, exercise, good food, etc . etc. I don't want to engage any political discussion, and I see similar mindset with some europeans. It somehow just baffles the crap out of me to see people want to, and be proud of, overworking / sitting in a car 2-3 hours a day / breathing polluted air / eating prefab sandwiches or other junkfood. Meanwhile labelling any alternative as 'communism' Had a bit of that for the first few years of my working life. Never again.
- arjie 10y ago> It somehow just baffles the crap out of me to see people want to, and be proud of, overworking / sitting in a car 2-3 hours a day / breathing polluted air / eating prefab sandwiches or other junkfood. Meanwhile labelling any alternative as 'communism' Had a bit of that for the first few years of my working life. Never again Wtf lol. America isn't necessarily like this. You just had a shit job.
- techsupporter 10y agoIt's much easier to say "portions of America aren't necessarily like this" while also saying "portions of America very much are like this." I know because I used to live in one of the latter parts and now I live in one of the former. Just because your experience doesn't match the experience of the person to whom you are replying doesn't mean that person's perception is wrong.
- sidlls 10y agoAmerica in aggregate most certainly is like that. There are cases where some or all of these things don't apply, but these aren't representative of a typical American worker's experience.
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- pif 10y agoMuch money goes around in Switzerland. Let's wait and see what happens now that the bank secret is no more.
- holydude 10y agoSwitzerland is the biggest representative of Western Europe hypocrisy. Their society claims how developed and humane they are but at the end of the day almost all of their wealth comes from money laundering, tax evasion and exploiting weaker economies with their corporations. USA is at least honest about all of it :-)
- sparkling 10y agoThe bank secret has defacto been dead for a few years now. There seems to be little impact on the economy or quality of living.
- vidoc 10y agoSwitzerland isn't just a Banking paradise, it's a widely spread misconception that the economic miracle of this country is only related to its bank and tax code. Very obvious by just looking at its balance of trade. Besides, the Swiss secret has been kinda taken care of by the IRS a few years ago. One thing tho, is that while wages are extremely high there, the cost of living is extreme too!
- pjmlp 10y agoMost of the article's way of life/work balance is common across European countries. Even those that are much worse than Switzerland, still treat their workers better than in US.
- tobltobs 10y agoFollowing you logic Delaware should have the best social system of the world.
- mtimjones 10y ago"For example, in 2010, Mitt Romney, whose total income was $21.6 million, paid only $3 million in taxes, or a tax rate of about 14 percent, which is amazing when you consider this is the same tax rate American families earning wages from about $16,750 to $68,000 paid in 2010." So Mitt Romney payed $3M in taxes, and the american family that made $68K paid $9,520. Yes, 14% == 14%, but 0.14x != 0.14y. Liberals need a new boogeyman, this one is getting overused and makes no sense.
- holydude 10y agoSorry but this is simply "the grass is greener" syndrome. Lets not picture a Switzerland as a model country because it is not. Switzerland does a lot of evil things that hurt economies of the other states of EU (lets ignore the rest of the world for a second).
- martin_bech 10y agoThe description is similar in most of western Europe, while SF/NY wages sure seem tempting, i could never give up all the benefits of Europe for it.. 5-6 weeks vacation beeing a minimum (5 is the law, 6 is the norm) and a 37 hour work week. (Denmark)
- flubert 10y agoHow many paid holiday's are there in Denmark or Switzerland? Or what is the total number of paid days off including vacation and holidays? I'd say the average number of holidays for white collar workers in the U.S. is about 10 days.
- d4adb33f 10y agoAbout the same according to a quick Google search. "It usually adds up to five weeks of vacation plus around nine public holidays (plus other possible company paid holidays or additional vacation time)." Source: http://www.thelocal.dk/20150407/working-in-denmark-vacation-and-holidays http://www.thelocal.dk/20150407/working-in-denmark-vacation-...
- martin_bech 10y agoThats a good question. I just counted the days for 2017, its 8 and a half. May 1st is half a day off (not for everyone). So 5-6 weeks + 8 days. (Sidenote, most jobs you have to use 3 weeks vacation during summer)
- martin_bech 10y agoI almost forgot, if you work in the public sector, you also get 2 days of per child under 7 years, for each parent. You can also negotiate to take part of your maternity leave at a later date, some of our friends are now on a 3 month vacation in Australia, using the maternity leave and savings for funding. ( this needs to be negotiated with employer, but its not unusual)
- smnscu 10y agoAh, I remember Chantal, I used to devour her blog [0] documenting her transition to Swiss culture/etc. I used to be crazy about Zurich and wanted to move there, but 2 years of Germany convinced me I will never get used to the German culture. Still an utterly beautiful country, and I would probably still move to Switzerland for a while if I didn't have children. 0: http://www.onebigyodel.com/ http://www.onebigyodel.com/
- jmiserez 10y agoGermany != Switzerland. There are lots of cultural similarities, but also vast differences. I wouldn't recommend making that statement in a group of Swiss and German people. (For the record I'm Swiss, but I think most Germans would agree with me on this.) BTW coming here with children isn't too much of a problem. You don't necessarily have to put them in Swiss schools, there are also international schools where the curriculum is oriented towards expats (SATs etc) and the language is English.
- poulsbohemian 10y agoI'm an American of Swiss extraction who studied in Germany, and Germans would even say that different parts of their own country have different cultures and that Switzerland is most definitely not the same as Germany.
- nedsma 10y agoCan you please elaborate in a few sentences that about the German culture?
- thesimon 10y agoAs a German I would say some of the negative aspects are: * Always afraid of innovation * Contactless credit cards are regarded as very dangerous * Even debit card payments are bad because they cost the seller money and the government might see where you bought stuff * McDonalds EasyOrder kiosks are mostly empty and people prefer to queue for ages to order "the normal way" * "Only my lifestyle is the right one and others are just wrong"-mindset * Restricting opening hours because you could just shop earlier or on a Saturday just like they do
- LargeCompanies 10y agoWasn't Venezuela socialized too? Switzerland sounds awesome; make tons more money there and work fewer hours...why isn't that the norm everywhere if it's so great and works out so well? Their population is 8 million vs 318 million here in the U.S......
- holydude 10y agoMost of the europeans do not realize how much of their wealth comes from cooperating with Americans and using cheap labour in countries with liberal laws. Lets make cars expensive because they pollute our country it's not a problem we can all drive bikes it's much better. Then we sing kumbaya and call it a day while our biggest corporation fucks up the earth.
- Findeton 10y agoSure but most of the EU have the benefits this article talks about. Not the high salary, but all the rest.
- jernfrost 10y agoVenezuela has nothing to do with what we do in Europe. I am kind of tired of this kind of ignorance. Please educate yourself about the differences. And Europe is a lot of different countries with different systems. Switzerland is among the most capitalistic in Europe. Definitely not socialist as you imagine. You imagine anything that doesn't sound brutal and exploitative must be a socialist dream?
- LargeCompanies 10y agoplz tell me the differences
- vidoc 10y agoNot quiet sure conclusions can be taken about an alternative model (socialism) based on a single implementation (Venezuela), which, by the way, probably got a little bit of foreign help to fail, if you look at history..
- sparkling 10y agoMake no mistake. Switzerland is not comparable to say France, Germany or Italy. The fabric and demographics of western european societies are changing rapidly and wages in France, Germany, Italy are low compared to the US. And it is only going to continue to go downwards from here. As a rule of thumb: yes, the poorest 25% are better of in Europe, everyone else is probably better of in the US. Disclosure: grew up in Germany and over the past 20 years, i have lived in NYC, Boston, Munich, Geneva, Bucharest.
- alkonaut 10y agoI don't think there would be much difference to her story had she lived in e.g. Stockholm instead of Zurich. I make a normal software dev salary, after 13 years in Stockholm I make around $90k, and pay around $30k in (income) taxes. For that I get healthcare, 480 days paid leave per child (to share between parents), free education for the kids (including daycare from age 1). I don't worry about retiring. I could probably make more money in (parts of) the US, even after paying for healthcare, daycare, college, pensions, parental leave, 6 weeks a year off etc. But still I wouldn't say that would make me better off - mostly because of culture - it would be career suicide to take a year off with each child in the US, even if I could afford it. It would also seem weird that I had to drop the kids off at 8 and leave to pick them up at 4pm, for 7 years...
- benmarten 10y agoThe key difference is that in most western European countries you are forced to participate in that socialist system, in America you are definitely more free and probably have the best opportunities in the world. I don't need more! Thank you :)
- alkonaut 10y agoI think That's simply not true: every country has taxes and in every democracy there will be around as many people who would like lower taxes as there are people who would prefer higher taxes. Whether the income tax is 15, 20 or 30% doesn't change that. If you want low taxes, the US really isn't the place to be either. The caricature of Western European countries as socialist dystopia is usually only based in ignorance or disinformation.
- alkonaut 10y ago> At my former American job, I received 10 days of paid vacation per year, and each of those days came with a sizable portion of guilt if actually used. ELI5: are employees sometimes (often?) expected to work on their vacation? Or take those days out as extra pay instead? Or is it just that it's never "a good time" to take that holiday?
- IndianAstronaut 10y agoI just took 4 days off work. I got a text from my boss saying some of our ETL jobs failed and I had to take a look at them.
- d4adb33f 10y agoThat's some serious WTF, unless you were the only person in the company able to do that and it was an extinction event for the company if nobody dealt with it.
- forgetsusername 10y ago>unless you were the only person in the company able... As someone who is also in a position like the OP, it's always "life or death".
- d4adb33f 10y agoMakes me think of the Foo Fighters song. Wouldn't the rational thing be to turn off your phone when you take a vacation or even leave it at the office?
- dvtv75 10y agoWhy should an employee change their lifestyle while on vacation because their employer has no sense of fair and reasonable boundaries?
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- a3n 10y agoFrom the comments: > Another article that shows that American exceptionalism is a myth. We can be so much better and we have so much to learn from the rest of the world. America probably was exceptional at some time in the past. Now, among modern western countries, we are merely an exception.
- gerbilly 10y agoAmerica was exceptional in that it had tons of 'free' land to grab. That is of course no longer the case.
- Nomentatus 10y agoThat land also held most of the gold that the world hadn't already mined yet, on that land. Quite seriously, this was an immense economic advantage almost into modern times.
- zebraflask 10y agoThe exception that just happens to start wars whenever we feel like it?
- sctb 10y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816
- aub3bhat 10y agoConsidering that Swiss politics (especially immigration) makes Donald Trump's policies look downright liberal. I will pass. Switzerland is a tiny (population smaller than NYC) paradise for those privileged to be born there (err scratch that "hold citizenship" Swiss actually don't believe in birthright citizenship) funded by tourism and tax-evasion. Sure they might have a great "work culture" but I would rather take chance on American dream and belief in hard work. If you actually read the most up voted comment the last time this was discussed, it says the same thing. """ "Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than alive in Switzerland. You could carve out multiple Switzerlands of the US if you broke it up and tightened immigration (as the Swiss are doing right now). """ Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9988048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9988048 If you were to carve out Silicon Valley to LA into a new country and with similar xenophobic immigration policies you will have a nation far far superior than any other on earth. Such comparisons are meaningless.
- disordinary 10y agoLots of companies in the US treat their employees well, but plenty don't - and there is very little in the way of employee protection in "at will" states. In other western countries employees can't be fired without being given multiple written warnings and given opportunities to improve their performance. They get a higher minimum wage (with no distinction on what industry they work in, so no need to rely on tips if you're in hospitality), and they get at minimum 30 days holiday when you include public holidays. On the other hand the wages in the US are higher than most western countries, and the cost of living lower (interestingly the taxes aren't despite the central government providing fewer services). People don't realise the trade off that exists for the American dream and there is a trade off for all but the luckiest few. I know I didn't when I worked in the Bay Area for a bit. It's a system that seems to prioritise business over employees and you can't argue with the success of American companies, so depending on your mindset it works. The trade off is worth it for some, not for others.
- jernfrost 10y agoThis story is all too predictable and the ensuing debate is the same as always. Americans will point to the small size of European country X, compared to the US. The problem with that reasoning is that it is pretty much like this all over Europe with just variations. Some places have lower salaries, some have longer vacations or maternity leave. Still there are about 500 million people living in systems offering better work-life balance than what 300 million Americans are experiencing. The American reaction seems to be summed up as different variations of denial. Either one accept that America is like that but one denies the possibility of America changing. Or one simply denies that things really are that bad. What a multitude of European countries are doing isn't magic, nor is it humongously expensive. America is much richer than Europe as a whole, yet Americans are completely convinced it is impossible for America to afford any sort of work-life balance. Or the retort is that, if this is so great then why don't everybody do it? Well lots of European countries do for that reason. It isn't impossible in America either, but Americans keep voting against their own interests. They keep voting in favor of people who will hand their money over to the 1%. Since the 70s America has grown its wealth tremendously but regular people's income has changed rather little since all the wealth has gone to the 1%. People are sold the myth that all this wealth is going to innovative founders like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk or whatever. Not it isn't. Most money in the US is not made from creating new products. It is made in finance. The US economy has been financialized. People who push papers around are taking most of the money not the innovators. The very same people who brought the American economy to its knees in 2008 is taking most of the money. You don't have to believe me, you can just research the finacialization of the American economy yourself. You can read about the rising inequality and the 1% yourself. You can read about how policies in the US tend to favor the will of the rich minority rather than the average majority. And these people can keep screwing over Americans because they keep making Americans believe that their real problem is poor Mexican illegals stealing all the benefits, jobs and money. They can laugh while the poor fight among themselves for the crumbs, while they eat their fat steaks.
- Synaesthesia 10y agoAs for why this has happened, there has been a systematic propaganda effort by corporations who own most of the media and it's been quite successful.
- NSWorldwide 10y agoAt a recent lunch with a VP of human resources for the largest tech employer here in Seattle I asked why their company was so parsimonious with providing paid vacation and work life balance.
- NSWorldwide 10y agoI had lunch recently with a VP of human resources who worked for one of the largest tech employers here in Seattle (that is known for routinely working people 50 to 60+ hours a week) why they didn't provide more vacation and greater worklife balance. She replied that the young tech talent that they recruit doesn't demand it they only look at the top line salary and don't calculate the amount that they are earning per hour.
- analog31 10y agoThis may be a rational strategy. How much they're earning per hour only matters economically if they're paid by the hour, or have a chance to earn money in a second job, side business, etc. Meanwhile, their top line salary is a starting point for calculating the bottom line, which is how quickly they can build up their own financial safety net for contingencies such as getting laid off, old, sick, raising kids, etc. Or, for starting their own business. Granted, I'm probably guilty as charged. I keep tabs on my total wealth, as I inch towards retirement and my kids race towards college. Also, I haven't gone to the extreme of working 80 hours per week, as I've managed to maintain my career progress while guarding my work hours and living in a fairly pleasant -- dare I say more European-like -- city. I also have a second job and a side business. Perhaps in Europe, having a mandatory safety net (health care, etc.) means that workers don't have to be as aggressive about building their own safety net, and tend to negotiate differently.
- caminante 10y agoShe replied that the young tech talent that they recruit doesn't demand it they only look at the top line salary and don't calculate the amount that they are earning per hour. The explanation doesn't make sense. 1. At the "large tech employers," the young talent couldn't demand it as they have limited power. There's plenty of substitutes at the margins. Both parties know this. 2. Employees surely calculate $/hour. It's cute to derive a minimum wage salary when you spread wages across more hours, but earnings/career comparison stops there.
- aidenn0 10y agoAt the "large tech employers" the young talent largely drives the compensation structure. To be large you need to hire a lot of people. If you want to hire a lot of people, then the easiest way is to attract new graduates (the only two times there is a large pool of talented engineers is at graduation time and when a large company shuts down). Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook (and probably others) are competing for that same pool, and if they could increase their acceptance rate of offers by 10% by offering better work-life balance they would do it in a heartbeat. In my experience, the two main things that 22 year old tech graduates are looking for are money and future career potential. I doubt more than a few percent of the young interviewees at those companies even ask about vacation time. I have a fairly small data-set, but not one of several dozen right-out-of-college interviewees have asked me about how many hours they would be expected to work.
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- ensiferum 10y agoThe "American Dream" is a has-been. I'm not old enough to have lived through this myself, but what I've understood the US was probably the best country to live in after the WWII. Some +30 years of industrial growth, start of consumerism without climate change and ecological or economical worries (and don't forget rock 'n roll!). The average joe could work a factory job and afford a house and a family. Crime rates were relatively low, income distribution was more even and generally every class of people were getting more prosperous, except perhaps the blacks and latinos who still were being discriminated against (and still are). That being said since the -70's and -80's Nixon's and Reagan's administration saw the collapse of the american dream, stagnating minimum salaries, the explosion of crime, war on drugs (that has cost billions), unprecedented bias in income distribution. The Soviet Union and communism was the new evil, US liberated it's economy. Capitalism and freedom was the answer. What could possibly go wrong when industries (such as banking) self regulate... Now US has regressed to a country where the owning class is super rich, meanwhile there's a 3rd world country juxtaposed onto itself. Enormous poverty, crime, drug abuse, social problems, racial problems and a new president whose road to power is paved with dreams like cutting back on the minimum wage etc. stupidity. On top of that you have a goverment that spies on its citizens. Event in the poorest countries the elite are always doing well. You don't judge a country based on how well the elite are doing but on how well the poor are doing.
- Synaesthesia 10y agoBut there's something that can be done about it. The labor rights people do have today in the USA were won by taking action, not given.
- aorloff 10y agoYes but labor rights is a poor substitute for a system that allows and encourages small business. I'm not talking about "Entrepreneurs" in the new sense of the term, I'm talking about the sense that the first 200 years of America fostered, where basically after apprenticeship any tradesman started their own firm and became their own boss. Labor rights are a bad consolation prize for a system that should be encouraging self determination.
- jstewartmobile 10y agoAs a southerner, I am surrounded by "conservative" people who are collecting several checks from the government, who paid nowhere near what they are taking back out, who endlessly bitch about Obama and Democrats, who rag on some poor girl who works at WalMart 39 hours a week using a WIC card as an example of communism. I don't believe there is a system of government or economics that will tolerate that level of self-delusion for long. Our fundamental problem is that the postwar period was so provident for us that we have lost all touch with reality.
- Nomentatus 10y agoThat post-war period was based on the expropriation of every single bit of German patent IP as a spoil of WWII (Russia also did this, so the U.S. may have been following suit - but Britain didn't.)
- leroy_masochist 10y agoSwitzerland is great, but should we be using it as an example for other countries to follow? Most other countries can't expect a substantial portion of their tax base to come from banks holding trillions of dollars of dictators' assets, physical commodity trading, and multinational pharma conglomerates (not to mention the impact on the local economy of the spending of the very well-paid employees of said institutions). I'm not trying to hate on Switzerland by saying this....my grandfather emigrated from there, I have many cousins still there, it's an amazing place, virtually everyone is super healthy and multilingual, they have forward-thinking socially liberal laws, etc.....but let's call a spade a spade when it comes to how they are able to afford everything.
- s3nnyy 10y agoBanking is less than 5% of Switzerland's GDP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_Switzerland). The top 10 companies by revenue are all in pharmaceuticals or commodity trading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_rev.... Chocolate, cheese and mountains is just there to entertain tourists but even if you would kill tourism and banking, Switzerland still would be superstrong due to the megacorps (e.g., Glencore is located here and trades with 80% of all coal in the world) who decided to pay taxes in Switzerland. (You can read more about Switzerland in my blogpost "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech": https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90# https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t... - I am well-connected tech-recruiter in Zurich and if you're thinking of moving here and getting a coding job, feel free to contact me - you find my email address in my HN profile.)
- Futurebot 10y ago72% of Americans support paid leave programs: http://www.apnorc.org/news-media/Pages/News+Media/Poll-shows-strong-support-for-paid-family-leave-programs.aspx http://www.apnorc.org/news-media/Pages/News+Media/Poll-shows... 58% support universal health care: http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-healthcare-system.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-... 62% support debt-free college: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-01/majority-of-americans-want-college-to-be-free https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-01/majority-... 92% would prefer wealth distribution to look like Sweden: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/americans-want-to-live-in-a-much-more-equal-country-they-just-dont-realize-it/260639/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/american... What some believe Americans want or will accept is still odds with the reality. The actual problem in this country is that our representatives do not represent most Americans; they represent the interests of the wealthy. We live in a plutocratic oligarchy with only the trappings of representative democracy: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/the-second-gilded-age-has-america-become-an-oligarchy-a-793896.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/the-second-gilde... http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-oligarchy http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/is-america-an-oli...
- vijayr 10y agoHow easy or hard is it to move to EU (vs the US), from an Asian country? And which would be the top countries to move to, in EU?
- d4adb33f 10y agoIt's not very hard, if you have money or skills that are in demand. Top countries depend on what you are looking for.
- vijayr 10y agookay, for programming skills? which would you recommend? when you say money, do you mean investing? what if I don't want to invest or start a company or employ local people?
- d4adb33f 10y agoIf you do not want to invest or start a company, then your only option is to find a job. With solid programming skills, you should be able to find a company to sponsor you. I know nothing about you, so I really can't recommend anything.
- bwanab 10y agoThere are many good points in the article. I worked in Switzerland for a couple of years and there are also some inaccuracies to keep in mind. 1. Yes, the average Swiss makes more than the average American, but the cost of living there is also much higher. So much higher that on a purchasing power parity computation, the average Swiss makes $58,600 compared to $56,000 for the average American (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...). That's a long way from the stated $91,000. 4. Wealth-based taxes. Yes, the Swiss Federal taxes are very low. That is entirely offset by cantonal taxes. This isn't a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective. The Swiss cantons are very independent compared to U.S. states and provide most services locally. But, as a tax-payer, you'll be paying an equivalent amount to both levels of government as you would in the U.S. Only the ratio is going to be different. While I can vouch for the amazing unemployment benefits, I will also point out that for the many HN readers who are software developers, you would find that your profession doesn't have nearly the status in Switzerland as it does in the U.S. Anecdotally, when I lost my job, my unemployment benefits were great, but the jobs I could find were pathetic compared to what I could find back in the U.S. which is where I ended up despite my regret in missing many of the benefits of Swiss life the article discusses.
- s3nnyy 10y agoThis discussion is flawed as it assumes Switzerland is like the rest of Europe. The buying power here is at least two times the buying power of people in UK, Germany or anywhere else in Europe. It did not take part in both world wars and did many strategic things right in the last 200 years. You can read more about Switzerland in my blogpost "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech": https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90 https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t... Full disclosure: I am well-connected tech-recruiter in Zurich and if you're thinking of moving here and getting a coding job, feel free to contact me - you find my email address in my HN profile.
- thesimon 10y ago> This article is two years old but most of the things are valid still today. Would you say the salary levels are still accurate? Just making a back-of-the-envelope calculation using your numbers for food, immoscout24 for rent (used a 2.5 room in Oerlikon) and lohncomputer.ch (http://imgur.com/iWXaJSC http://imgur.com/iWXaJSC) makes (junior) dev salaries in Germany look ridiculous low.
- s3nnyy 10y agoYes, even after the Swiss unpegged the franc from the Euro (http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/01/economist-explains-13 http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/01/ec...), salaries are stable.