7 ms·

In The Netherlands a similar bill has been submitted to our upper house for approval last September. I hope it passes, although there is vocal opposition agains

In The Netherlands a similar bill has been submitted to our upper house for approval last September. I hope it passes, although there is vocal opposition against this issue. From a society's perspective opt-out makes perfect sense. If you are really against organ donation, just register yourself as such; it takes all of five minutes. I don't even care why you would want to keep all your organs after death, it's not my call. The reason to go for opt-out rather than opt-in is because a lot of people simply don't register their preference, even when they are, rationally speaking, all for organ donation — that's the critical point. Thinking about your own mortality sucks, and visiting the website where you can register yourself as a donor (necessary for the opt-in model) is something that hovers somewhere on the eternal to-do list, but somehow they never get around to it. Because it is never you that suddenly dies in a freak accident. If you are against organ donation, you will however register that preference the moment such a bill is passed into law. That's it. Statistics and psychology (and saving lives) are the reason states consider opt-out over opt-in. The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty, you are not being harvested for organs the moment you enter a hospital (well, not in France or The Netherlands at least), and you still get to decide.

shaqbert 10y ago
The "nudge" effect has had significant positive results [1] where it got introduced. It basically is the difference between a many year organ waiting list and getting a rapid transplant. [1] http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-014-0131-4 http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916...
jhg7877 10y ago
"From a society's perspective opt-out makes perfect sense." It's very troubling to follow that line of thought. It's also arguably in societies interest to make all your private medical data publicly available for research and all your private communications, purchases and movements available to any government agency to prevent crime etc. How many people would be comfortable with what are considered by many to be fundamental rights being opt-in all of a sudden? "The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty". It is, in the most fundamental and intimate way possible. If you support opt-out at least be honest about what it is. I carry an organ donation card but this is a line I think should not be crossed. There are alternative which don't make your body ownership opt-in (like doctors guidelines about approaching families etc).
- d4adb33f 10y ago
  > From a society's perspective opt-out makes perfect sense." It's very troubling to follow that line of thought. It's also arguably in societies interest to make all your private medical data publicly available for research and all your private communications, purchases and movements available to any government agency to prevent crime etc. How many people would be comfortable with what are considered by many to be fundamental rights being opt-in all of a sudden? Straw man argument. People don't die with immediate effect for lack of public data. > "The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty". It is, in the most fundamental and intimate way possible. If you support opt-out at least be honest about what it is. I carry an organ donation card but this is a line I think should not be crossed. There are alternative which don't make your body ownership opt-in (like doctors guidelines about approaching families etc). You are dead. What rights do you really need and how are they violated?
  - chrischen 10y ago
    While i support opt out, you do have rights after you're dead, otherwise your wills would have no power and you would not be able to leave inheritance.
    - d4adb33f 10y ago
      Sure, but this has no relation to what happens to your body when you are dead, unless you deed your body in your will.
  - loup-vaillant 10y ago
    > You are dead. What rights do you really need and how are they violated? I see two possibilities. One, the state of my body affects what will happen to me. Two, I am mostly dead, and cryonics (and some future tech) could save me. The first requires something supernatural. My probability: "no way in hell". The second requires cryonics to work. In theory, in practice, economically, and for me in particular. My probability: "one hell of a long shot". Even if my organs do matter to my dead being, doctors still have lives to save…
ar-jan 10y ago
I hope it doesn't pass, it's a move in a very wrong direction. > The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty Basically, that IS what's happening. The obvious sane solution would be to force people to make a choice, for example, when you request a new ID card you must register your preference. But now the default choice is already made for you. And that's of course exactly what they're aiming for, just as software vendors do with opt-out schemes.
- jhg7877 10y ago
  It's a classic dark pattern. I think many of the people supporting opt-out know that people would say no if confronted with the question so they support what I would call an an underhand and sinister approach. See the OP's response below "I would fear that for many people being confronted with this choice when you are renewing your driver's licence means defaulting for the 'safe' option of non-donor."
  - loup-vaillant 10y ago
    On the one hand we have this underhanded, sinister manipulation. On the other hand, we have lives to save. Personally, I side with the supervillain on this one. Hurt feelings (including religious delusions) are nothing compared to the good you can make with a person's organs. That said, I still (reluctantly) support the possibility to opt out. Forcing people to give up their body after their death is likely to have consequences I don't want to deal with.
Mc_Big_G 10y ago
"I don't even care why you would want to keep all your organs after death" I don't, but I also want every measure to be taken to ensure I survive. With the corruption and dishonesty we've seen from the police all the way to the highest levels of government, I no longer believe my best interests will be honored. I used to be a donor, but I've lost faith in our institutions, especially when it comes to Healthcare. Do you trust insurance companies? If so, why?
- pzh 10y ago
  Why is this downvoted? I think it's a valid concern. How do you know that in some small village somewhere the local government isn't so corrupt as to make sure the organ donation process gets 'speeded up' to serve the need of some wealthy/influential organ recipient in waiting?
  - raesene9 10y ago
    I didn't downvote, but I've got to say I don't think it is a valid concern. If you honestly have so little faith in local government that you believe they would change the care options of a patient to "speed up" organ donation, what makes you think they wouldn't disregard the patients preferences on organ donation and just remove the relavent item after death and before handing the body over to the family?
    - pzh 10y ago
      Aren't you effectively saying that it's pointless to lock your house, because if a thief is immoral enough to enter and steal your TV, they'd be immoral enough to break the lock as well?
      - raesene9 10y ago
        nope I'm saying that one is as easy or indeed easier than another. Once you assume an immoral authority has control over patient care it's frankly easier and less risky for them just to remove organs without patient consent after death, than deliberately give poor care to hasten the patient's demise.
shpx 10y ago
In the US in 2012 94% "strongly support" organ donation and 61% are actually donors[0], so at most we can expect to double the number of registered donors -- although depending on demographics of non donors that might mean a lot more actual donors since 2.5 million die annually but there are only 30,000 organ donations. The waitlist grows by a few thousand each year (was 117,000 in 2012), so doubling the number of organ donors would solve the problem in like a decade, assuming rates stay the same -- although I bet more people would get organ transplants if it was more readily available [1]. I don't know the number of people who don't want to donate their organs but even more strongly don't want to be on the "Selfish Assholes List" (which will inevitably be leaked (increasing distrust between citizens is a nice "cyberwarfare" play)), but I suspect it's non negligible. Maybe social pressure is for the greater good, but it is a tradeoff you should be honest about. The real solution is artificial organs. [0] https://imgur.com/a/qoeUR https://imgur.com/a/qoeUR charts taken from https://www.organdonor.gov/dtcp/nationalsurveyorgandonation.pdf https://www.organdonor.gov/dtcp/nationalsurveyorgandonation.... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

shaqbert 10y ago

The "nudge" effect has had significant positive results [1] where it got introduced. It basically is the difference between a many year organ waiting list and getting a rapid transplant. [1] http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-014-0131-4 http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916...

jhg7877 10y ago

"From a society's perspective opt-out makes perfect sense." It's very troubling to follow that line of thought. It's also arguably in societies interest to make all your private medical data publicly available for research and all your private communications, purchases and movements available to any government agency to prevent crime etc. How many people would be comfortable with what are considered by many to be fundamental rights being opt-in all of a sudden? "The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty". It is, in the most fundamental and intimate way possible. If you support opt-out at least be honest about what it is. I carry an organ donation card but this is a line I think should not be crossed. There are alternative which don't make your body ownership opt-in (like doctors guidelines about approaching families etc).

d4adb33f 10y ago
> From a society's perspective opt-out makes perfect sense." It's very troubling to follow that line of thought. It's also arguably in societies interest to make all your private medical data publicly available for research and all your private communications, purchases and movements available to any government agency to prevent crime etc. How many people would be comfortable with what are considered by many to be fundamental rights being opt-in all of a sudden? Straw man argument. People don't die with immediate effect for lack of public data. > "The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty". It is, in the most fundamental and intimate way possible. If you support opt-out at least be honest about what it is. I carry an organ donation card but this is a line I think should not be crossed. There are alternative which don't make your body ownership opt-in (like doctors guidelines about approaching families etc). You are dead. What rights do you really need and how are they violated?
- chrischen 10y ago
  While i support opt out, you do have rights after you're dead, otherwise your wills would have no power and you would not be able to leave inheritance.
  - d4adb33f 10y ago
    Sure, but this has no relation to what happens to your body when you are dead, unless you deed your body in your will.
- loup-vaillant 10y ago
  > You are dead. What rights do you really need and how are they violated? I see two possibilities. One, the state of my body affects what will happen to me. Two, I am mostly dead, and cryonics (and some future tech) could save me. The first requires something supernatural. My probability: "no way in hell". The second requires cryonics to work. In theory, in practice, economically, and for me in particular. My probability: "one hell of a long shot". Even if my organs do matter to my dead being, doctors still have lives to save…

ar-jan 10y ago

I hope it doesn't pass, it's a move in a very wrong direction. > The state isn't invading your corporeal sovereignty Basically, that IS what's happening. The obvious sane solution would be to force people to make a choice, for example, when you request a new ID card you must register your preference. But now the default choice is already made for you. And that's of course exactly what they're aiming for, just as software vendors do with opt-out schemes.

jhg7877 10y ago
It's a classic dark pattern. I think many of the people supporting opt-out know that people would say no if confronted with the question so they support what I would call an an underhand and sinister approach. See the OP's response below "I would fear that for many people being confronted with this choice when you are renewing your driver's licence means defaulting for the 'safe' option of non-donor."
- loup-vaillant 10y ago
  On the one hand we have this underhanded, sinister manipulation. On the other hand, we have lives to save. Personally, I side with the supervillain on this one. Hurt feelings (including religious delusions) are nothing compared to the good you can make with a person's organs. That said, I still (reluctantly) support the possibility to opt out. Forcing people to give up their body after their death is likely to have consequences I don't want to deal with.

Mc_Big_G 10y ago

"I don't even care why you would want to keep all your organs after death" I don't, but I also want every measure to be taken to ensure I survive. With the corruption and dishonesty we've seen from the police all the way to the highest levels of government, I no longer believe my best interests will be honored. I used to be a donor, but I've lost faith in our institutions, especially when it comes to Healthcare. Do you trust insurance companies? If so, why?

pzh 10y ago
Why is this downvoted? I think it's a valid concern. How do you know that in some small village somewhere the local government isn't so corrupt as to make sure the organ donation process gets 'speeded up' to serve the need of some wealthy/influential organ recipient in waiting?
- raesene9 10y ago
  I didn't downvote, but I've got to say I don't think it is a valid concern. If you honestly have so little faith in local government that you believe they would change the care options of a patient to "speed up" organ donation, what makes you think they wouldn't disregard the patients preferences on organ donation and just remove the relavent item after death and before handing the body over to the family?
  - pzh 10y ago
    Aren't you effectively saying that it's pointless to lock your house, because if a thief is immoral enough to enter and steal your TV, they'd be immoral enough to break the lock as well?
    - raesene9 10y ago
      nope I'm saying that one is as easy or indeed easier than another. Once you assume an immoral authority has control over patient care it's frankly easier and less risky for them just to remove organs without patient consent after death, than deliberately give poor care to hasten the patient's demise.

shpx 10y ago

In the US in 2012 94% "strongly support" organ donation and 61% are actually donors[0], so at most we can expect to double the number of registered donors -- although depending on demographics of non donors that might mean a lot more actual donors since 2.5 million die annually but there are only 30,000 organ donations. The waitlist grows by a few thousand each year (was 117,000 in 2012), so doubling the number of organ donors would solve the problem in like a decade, assuming rates stay the same -- although I bet more people would get organ transplants if it was more readily available [1]. I don't know the number of people who don't want to donate their organs but even more strongly don't want to be on the "Selfish Assholes List" (which will inevitably be leaked (increasing distrust between citizens is a nice "cyberwarfare" play)), but I suspect it's non negligible. Maybe social pressure is for the greater good, but it is a tradeoff you should be honest about. The real solution is artificial organs. [0] https://imgur.com/a/qoeUR https://imgur.com/a/qoeUR charts taken from https://www.organdonor.gov/dtcp/nationalsurveyorgandonation.pdf https://www.organdonor.gov/dtcp/nationalsurveyorgandonation.... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand