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> Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me. It's absurd to imply that such a person, if r

> Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me. It's absurd to imply that such a person, if real, is representative of the incomes of union members in New York. And again, why focus on that guy and not the person making tens of millions? EDIT: Reading the articles you linked to, I understand those are the high-end of salaries of crain operators building skyscrapers in in NYC.[0] I'm not sure that's inappropriate; it's high skill work with many lives and enormous investment on the line, like an airplane pilot. Why do people think their incomes are inappropriate (if that is the implication) and not the person who makes tens of millions from their casual gaming software startup. And that does not qualify as wealthy in NY, at least not in a way that will buy you any influence. [0] The International Union of Operating Engineers Local 14-14B lays out the wage floor for its operators at $73.91 per hour. That’s $150,000 a year before overtime, plus benefits equal to $32.50 an hour. When the operator is behind the controls of a tower crane, he gets a $2-an-hour bump. On weekends, when cranes are moved, pay doubles. With overtime, many union members earn half a million dollars a year.

bradleyjg 10y ago
I hear there's also starving people in Africa. You can what-about anything. Meanwhile these wealthy people with their overpaid jobs obtained through a racist system of nepotism and cronyism are screwing over the actual working classes that need to take public transportation to get to their low paid jobs. Why are you so fired up to act an apologist for rent seekers?
- coldtea 10y ago
  People operating cranes to build scycrapers and working overtime are the very opposite of "rent seekers". >these wealthy people, overpaid jobs, racist, nepotism, cronyism, screwing over I think you've made your case clear. Glad you didn't have to resort to name-calling.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    By definition, a person using a union to extract above market wages (I.e. rents) is a rent seeker. He resorted to name calling, but which of his names do you think is actuslly incorrect?
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >By definition, a person using a union to extract above market wages (I.e. rents) is a rent seeker. The definition already assumes that "market wages" reflect some optimal (for society) balance. So it's just circular reasoning. In the real world "market wages" also reflect power struggles, and in those power struggles those paying the wages have numerous means to get the upper hand -- from forming cartels and controlling the media, to downright buying politicians and favorable legislation. Unions help balance those power struggles to the (much more numerous) worker's side. You know, the people that, unlike Ayn Rand's heroes, actually produce something. Not to mention that the rich are the ultimate rent-seekers, especially in this stage of the economy. And "too big to fail" to top. >He resorted to name calling, but which of his names do you think is actuslly incorrect? Rent seeker is already incorrect as I showed. Then there's racism (doesn't even apply in this context), nepotism (as if union members hire their siblings?), cronyism (ditto), etc.
      - bradleyjg 10y ago
        http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2015/12/minority-workers-sue-operating-engineers-union-028979 http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2015...
        coldtea 10y ago
        That's just an example of a specific union. Not a general characteristic of unions, which have welcomed black, hispanic and asian workers as far back as the 1915 or so -- at a time when repression and racism was so systematic that there were even state and federal laws against specific minorities.
      - 10y ago

bradleyjg 10y ago

I hear there's also starving people in Africa. You can what-about anything. Meanwhile these wealthy people with their overpaid jobs obtained through a racist system of nepotism and cronyism are screwing over the actual working classes that need to take public transportation to get to their low paid jobs. Why are you so fired up to act an apologist for rent seekers?

coldtea 10y ago
People operating cranes to build scycrapers and working overtime are the very opposite of "rent seekers". >these wealthy people, overpaid jobs, racist, nepotism, cronyism, screwing over I think you've made your case clear. Glad you didn't have to resort to name-calling.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  By definition, a person using a union to extract above market wages (I.e. rents) is a rent seeker. He resorted to name calling, but which of his names do you think is actuslly incorrect?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >By definition, a person using a union to extract above market wages (I.e. rents) is a rent seeker. The definition already assumes that "market wages" reflect some optimal (for society) balance. So it's just circular reasoning. In the real world "market wages" also reflect power struggles, and in those power struggles those paying the wages have numerous means to get the upper hand -- from forming cartels and controlling the media, to downright buying politicians and favorable legislation. Unions help balance those power struggles to the (much more numerous) worker's side. You know, the people that, unlike Ayn Rand's heroes, actually produce something. Not to mention that the rich are the ultimate rent-seekers, especially in this stage of the economy. And "too big to fail" to top. >He resorted to name calling, but which of his names do you think is actuslly incorrect? Rent seeker is already incorrect as I showed. Then there's racism (doesn't even apply in this context), nepotism (as if union members hire their siblings?), cronyism (ditto), etc.
    - bradleyjg 10y ago
      http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2015/12/minority-workers-sue-operating-engineers-union-028979 http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2015...
      - coldtea 10y ago
        That's just an example of a specific union. Not a general characteristic of unions, which have welcomed black, hispanic and asian workers as far back as the 1915 or so -- at a time when repression and racism was so systematic that there were even state and federal laws against specific minorities.
    - 10y ago