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> New York City's unions, particularly public and construction unions, are strong Good point; unions seem stronger in NY than in other parts of the country. H

> New York City's unions, particularly public and construction unions, are strong Good point; unions seem stronger in NY than in other parts of the country. However, if you are a New Yorker, I don't think you mean to claim that the wealthy and powerful aren't the beneficiaries of corruption. IMHO, unions give workers power, balancing the scales a little. Power can be used for good or bad (or almost always, for both), but I certainly wouldn't exclude working-class people from it for not being angels. Why should they be held to a higher standard than other powerful people? If we are going to fight corruption, why pick on the working class?

bradleyjg 10y ago
Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me.
- fallingfrog 10y ago
  You know personally of someone making such a salary? Can you back this up or is this just rumor? Sounds like the kind of story that gets passed along by your drunk uncle starting with "a friend of mine said that a friend of his.."
  - bradleyjg 10y ago
    http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160515/REAL_ESTATE/160519910/why-is-this-little-construction-crane-illegal-in-new-york-city http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160515/REAL_ESTATE/16... http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399563008284024 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023039367045763995... http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-developers-sides-may-finally-be-yielding-some-ground/ http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-d... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/crane-operators-ready-citywide-strike-threatens-10b-construction-projects-article-1.160612 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/crane-operators-ready-ci...
    - hackuser 10y ago
      Thanks for the links. See my reply above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299228
    - fallingfrog 10y ago
      Thank you for the links- Extraordinary claims and all that. Still none of the articles claim that >400k is representative of an average operator. As the article says, France has stronger unions than we do but their costs are way lower. Personally, I've never met, or talked to anyone who has ever met an active member of a labor union. So for me they are semi-mythical organizations to begin with.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me. It's absurd to imply that such a person, if real, is representative of the incomes of union members in New York. And again, why focus on that guy and not the person making tens of millions? EDIT: Reading the articles you linked to, I understand those are the high-end of salaries of crain operators building skyscrapers in in NYC.[0] I'm not sure that's inappropriate; it's high skill work with many lives and enormous investment on the line, like an airplane pilot. Why do people think their incomes are inappropriate (if that is the implication) and not the person who makes tens of millions from their casual gaming software startup. And that does not qualify as wealthy in NY, at least not in a way that will buy you any influence. [0] The International Union of Operating Engineers Local 14-14B lays out the wage floor for its operators at $73.91 per hour. That’s $150,000 a year before overtime, plus benefits equal to $32.50 an hour. When the operator is behind the controls of a tower crane, he gets a $2-an-hour bump. On weekends, when cranes are moved, pay doubles. With overtime, many union members earn half a million dollars a year.
  - bradleyjg 10y ago
    I hear there's also starving people in Africa. You can what-about anything. Meanwhile these wealthy people with their overpaid jobs obtained through a racist system of nepotism and cronyism are screwing over the actual working classes that need to take public transportation to get to their low paid jobs. Why are you so fired up to act an apologist for rent seekers?
    - coldtea 10y ago
      People operating cranes to build scycrapers and working overtime are the very opposite of "rent seekers". >these wealthy people, overpaid jobs, racist, nepotism, cronyism, screwing over I think you've made your case clear. Glad you didn't have to resort to name-calling.
      - yummyfajitas 10y ago
        By definition, a person using a union to extract above market wages (I.e. rents) is a rent seeker. He resorted to name calling, but which of his names do you think is actuslly incorrect?
- tallanvor 10y ago
  Sure, $400k/year is a damn good salary, but realistically, how many of these people are managing that? We're talking 40+ hours of overtime a week to reach that salary. So it would seem that there's a shortage of people qualified to do the work.

bradleyjg 10y ago

Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me.

fallingfrog 10y ago
You know personally of someone making such a salary? Can you back this up or is this just rumor? Sounds like the kind of story that gets passed along by your drunk uncle starting with "a friend of mine said that a friend of his.."
- bradleyjg 10y ago
  http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160515/REAL_ESTATE/160519910/why-is-this-little-construction-crane-illegal-in-new-york-city http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160515/REAL_ESTATE/16... http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399563008284024 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023039367045763995... http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-developers-sides-may-finally-be-yielding-some-ground/ http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-d... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/crane-operators-ready-citywide-strike-threatens-10b-construction-projects-article-1.160612 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/crane-operators-ready-ci...
  - hackuser 10y ago
    Thanks for the links. See my reply above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299228
  - fallingfrog 10y ago
    Thank you for the links- Extraordinary claims and all that. Still none of the articles claim that >400k is representative of an average operator. As the article says, France has stronger unions than we do but their costs are way lower. Personally, I've never met, or talked to anyone who has ever met an active member of a labor union. So for me they are semi-mythical organizations to begin with.
hackuser 10y ago
> Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me. It's absurd to imply that such a person, if real, is representative of the incomes of union members in New York. And again, why focus on that guy and not the person making tens of millions? EDIT: Reading the articles you linked to, I understand those are the high-end of salaries of crain operators building skyscrapers in in NYC.[0] I'm not sure that's inappropriate; it's high skill work with many lives and enormous investment on the line, like an airplane pilot. Why do people think their incomes are inappropriate (if that is the implication) and not the person who makes tens of millions from their casual gaming software startup. And that does not qualify as wealthy in NY, at least not in a way that will buy you any influence. [0] The International Union of Operating Engineers Local 14-14B lays out the wage floor for its operators at $73.91 per hour. That’s $150,000 a year before overtime, plus benefits equal to $32.50 an hour. When the operator is behind the controls of a tower crane, he gets a $2-an-hour bump. On weekends, when cranes are moved, pay doubles. With overtime, many union members earn half a million dollars a year.
- bradleyjg 10y ago
  I hear there's also starving people in Africa. You can what-about anything. Meanwhile these wealthy people with their overpaid jobs obtained through a racist system of nepotism and cronyism are screwing over the actual working classes that need to take public transportation to get to their low paid jobs. Why are you so fired up to act an apologist for rent seekers?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    People operating cranes to build scycrapers and working overtime are the very opposite of "rent seekers". >these wealthy people, overpaid jobs, racist, nepotism, cronyism, screwing over I think you've made your case clear. Glad you didn't have to resort to name-calling.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      By definition, a person using a union to extract above market wages (I.e. rents) is a rent seeker. He resorted to name calling, but which of his names do you think is actuslly incorrect?
tallanvor 10y ago
Sure, $400k/year is a damn good salary, but realistically, how many of these people are managing that? We're talking 40+ hours of overtime a week to reach that salary. So it would seem that there's a shortage of people qualified to do the work.