7 ms·

> Until elected officials lose elections as a result of cost overruns it will be prudent for leaders to divert resources to efficiently-voting public unions. W

> Until elected officials lose elections as a result of cost overruns it will be prudent for leaders to divert resources to efficiently-voting public unions. Why the focus on unions, which are very weak in the U.S.? How about public officials who give work to their wealthy, powerful allies and donors?

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> Why the focus on union New York City's unions, particularly public and construction unions, are strong. In my limited experience, at hearings and meetings involving New York infrastructure, the "ayes" are supplied by the unions. The "wealthy, powerful allies and donors" are more present at zoning and related private-development discussions. Unions are visibly and numerously present at New York's many off-season elections, e.g. judicial primaries and participatory budgeting polls.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > New York City's unions, particularly public and construction unions, are strong Good point; unions seem stronger in NY than in other parts of the country. However, if you are a New Yorker, I don't think you mean to claim that the wealthy and powerful aren't the beneficiaries of corruption. IMHO, unions give workers power, balancing the scales a little. Power can be used for good or bad (or almost always, for both), but I certainly wouldn't exclude working-class people from it for not being angels. Why should they be held to a higher standard than other powerful people? If we are going to fight corruption, why pick on the working class?
  - bradleyjg 10y ago
    Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me.
    - fallingfrog 10y ago
      You know personally of someone making such a salary? Can you back this up or is this just rumor? Sounds like the kind of story that gets passed along by your drunk uncle starting with "a friend of mine said that a friend of his.."
      - bradleyjg 10y ago
        http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160515/REAL_ESTATE/160519910/why-is-this-little-construction-crane-illegal-in-new-york-city http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160515/REAL_ESTATE/16... http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399563008284024 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023039367045763995... http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-developers-sides-may-finally-be-yielding-some-ground/ http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-d... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/crane-operators-ready-citywide-strike-threatens-10b-construction-projects-article-1.160612 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/crane-operators-ready-ci...
        hackuser 10y ago
        Thanks for the links. See my reply above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299228
        fallingfrog 10y ago
        Thank you for the links- Extraordinary claims and all that. Still none of the articles claim that >400k is representative of an average operator. As the article says, France has stronger unions than we do but their costs are way lower. Personally, I've never met, or talked to anyone who has ever met an active member of a labor union. So for me they are semi-mythical organizations to begin with.
    - hackuser 10y ago
      > Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me. It's absurd to imply that such a person, if real, is representative of the incomes of union members in New York. And again, why focus on that guy and not the person making tens of millions? EDIT: Reading the articles you linked to, I understand those are the high-end of salaries of crain operators building skyscrapers in in NYC.[0] I'm not sure that's inappropriate; it's high skill work with many lives and enormous investment on the line, like an airplane pilot. Why do people think their incomes are inappropriate (if that is the implication) and not the person who makes tens of millions from their casual gaming software startup. And that does not qualify as wealthy in NY, at least not in a way that will buy you any influence. [0] The International Union of Operating Engineers Local 14-14B lays out the wage floor for its operators at $73.91 per hour. That’s $150,000 a year before overtime, plus benefits equal to $32.50 an hour. When the operator is behind the controls of a tower crane, he gets a $2-an-hour bump. On weekends, when cranes are moved, pay doubles. With overtime, many union members earn half a million dollars a year.
- jbooth 10y ago
  Unless union labor was a majority/plurality of the project's cost, then they're not the biggest problem with this project. Seems like you're just using them as a bugaboo to pin all the world's problems on.
1024core 10y ago
> Why the focus on unions, which are very weak in the U.S.? Weak in general, yes; but very strong in the public sector. They push through all sorts of measures because they control a large voting block (and often public sector unions support each other without questions; for example, if the fire fighters union is pushing for something, you can bet the police officers union will support it too). This really magnifies their power.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> Why the focus on union New York City's unions, particularly public and construction unions, are strong. In my limited experience, at hearings and meetings involving New York infrastructure, the "ayes" are supplied by the unions. The "wealthy, powerful allies and donors" are more present at zoning and related private-development discussions. Unions are visibly and numerously present at New York's many off-season elections, e.g. judicial primaries and participatory budgeting polls.

hackuser 10y ago
> New York City's unions, particularly public and construction unions, are strong Good point; unions seem stronger in NY than in other parts of the country. However, if you are a New Yorker, I don't think you mean to claim that the wealthy and powerful aren't the beneficiaries of corruption. IMHO, unions give workers power, balancing the scales a little. Power can be used for good or bad (or almost always, for both), but I certainly wouldn't exclude working-class people from it for not being angels. Why should they be held to a higher standard than other powerful people? If we are going to fight corruption, why pick on the working class?
- bradleyjg 10y ago
  Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me.
  - fallingfrog 10y ago
    You know personally of someone making such a salary? Can you back this up or is this just rumor? Sounds like the kind of story that gets passed along by your drunk uncle starting with "a friend of mine said that a friend of his.."
    - bradleyjg 10y ago
      http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160515/REAL_ESTATE/160519910/why-is-this-little-construction-crane-illegal-in-new-york-city http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20160515/REAL_ESTATE/16... http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399563008284024 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023039367045763995... http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-developers-sides-may-finally-be-yielding-some-ground/ http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/local-14-a-thorn-in-d... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/crane-operators-ready-citywide-strike-threatens-10b-construction-projects-article-1.160612 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/crane-operators-ready-ci...
      - hackuser 10y ago
        Thanks for the links. See my reply above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299228
      - fallingfrog 10y ago
        Thank you for the links- Extraordinary claims and all that. Still none of the articles claim that >400k is representative of an average operator. As the article says, France has stronger unions than we do but their costs are way lower. Personally, I've never met, or talked to anyone who has ever met an active member of a labor union. So for me they are semi-mythical organizations to begin with.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > Is a heavy crane operator making $400k/year plus benefits "working class"? That sure sounds like wealthy to me. It's absurd to imply that such a person, if real, is representative of the incomes of union members in New York. And again, why focus on that guy and not the person making tens of millions? EDIT: Reading the articles you linked to, I understand those are the high-end of salaries of crain operators building skyscrapers in in NYC.[0] I'm not sure that's inappropriate; it's high skill work with many lives and enormous investment on the line, like an airplane pilot. Why do people think their incomes are inappropriate (if that is the implication) and not the person who makes tens of millions from their casual gaming software startup. And that does not qualify as wealthy in NY, at least not in a way that will buy you any influence. [0] The International Union of Operating Engineers Local 14-14B lays out the wage floor for its operators at $73.91 per hour. That’s $150,000 a year before overtime, plus benefits equal to $32.50 an hour. When the operator is behind the controls of a tower crane, he gets a $2-an-hour bump. On weekends, when cranes are moved, pay doubles. With overtime, many union members earn half a million dollars a year.
jbooth 10y ago
Unless union labor was a majority/plurality of the project's cost, then they're not the biggest problem with this project. Seems like you're just using them as a bugaboo to pin all the world's problems on.

1024core 10y ago

> Why the focus on unions, which are very weak in the U.S.? Weak in general, yes; but very strong in the public sector. They push through all sorts of measures because they control a large voting block (and often public sector unions support each other without questions; for example, if the fire fighters union is pushing for something, you can bet the police officers union will support it too). This really magnifies their power.