4 ms·

Not a huge surprise that unions would push for fewer drivers to be voting members - one tried and true union tactic is to negotiate with an employer to take mon

Not a huge surprise that unions would push for fewer drivers to be voting members - one tried and true union tactic is to negotiate with an employer to take money from non-powerful-union-members and give it to union members. That's how you end up with pay by seniority rather than performance, layoffs where the union decides who gets laid off, and pension deals that are unavailable to new workers.

bogomipz 10y ago
Can you elaborate on this: >"One tried and true union tactic is to negotiate with an employer to take money from non-powerful-union-members and give it to union members." What exactly is negotiated directly between the employer? How does this redistribution work in practice? Thanks.
- tomnipotent 10y ago
  My understanding is that non-union employees are required to pay union dues since they still benefit from collective bargaining. Some states & contracts have an opt-out.
  - cperciva 10y ago
    That's the theory, yes. But there are plenty of examples of unions throwing some of their members (typically part-time employees or those without seniority) under a bus in order to get benefits for the rest; if the members being thrown under a bus don't even get to vote, they're even more screwed.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    I am wondering how a practice of an employer requiring non-union members to pay union dues would be legal. Doesn't this constitute a tax? Edit: it looks like this practice is not legal in right-to-work states in the US. This article seems to explain "Union security agreements" pretty well if anyone is interested: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter15-5.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-r... I wonder are non-union workers in union shops ever pressured to join?
wfo 10y ago
And it's also how you end up with weekends, benefits, worker protection, full-time employment and reasonable wages.
- Flammy 10y ago
  I think the point is more limited the voting body causes unequal membership. Basic worker benefits and protection can happen regardless of the number of voting members...
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    That's how I inferred the OPs comment as well. Shouldn't a union that represents the majority of its workers also be majority vote?
    - pm24601 10y ago
      No -- the people most affected by the decisions should have the greater voice. If a driver drives once: 1. they have less knowledge about working conditions 2. the trip was more of a fling with being an Uber driver and not a source of income. 3. It is easier for Uber or Lyft to stack the deck with drivers who are less informed on the issues
      - charleslmunger 10y ago
        On the other hand, a union that's run by people depending on uber as a full time source of income has a significant interest in reducing the number of people driving for a "fling" or part time - more surge pricing, more guarantee minimum income from uber, less risk of low ratings leading to punitive action, since uber can't just replace them easily. My point is that while unions benefit some workers, they don't benefit all workers. It's not a black and white situation.
- chronic0d 10y ago
  > And it's also how you end up with weekends, benefits, worker protection, full-time employment and reasonable wages. This will only apply to the top 10% of Union workers. The workers who came late (or the majority of Uber drivers) will receive less pay, have less power, work longer hours, and fewer benefits than the "senior" drivers. Do you really think unions will help everyone? They, just like everything else in this world, are designed to benefit the top.
crdoconnor 10y ago
>That's how you end up with pay by seniority rather than performance You get pay by seniority as a compromise because it's an objective measure, it correlates with performance and it can't be gamed by either side.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Does that correlation hold true for jobs already based on seniority?
- richdougherty 10y ago
  > it correlates with performance "Results suggest that, contrary to common beliefs, job tenure is largely unrelated to job performance." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001879113001395 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001879113...
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    "we conducted meta-analyses on the relationships of job tenure with four types of job performance: core task performance, citizenship behavior, creativity and innovative behavior, and counterproductive work behavior" Paywalled. However, the abstract ("citizenship behavior" / "creativity"... meaning what exactly?) hints that the measures are largely subjective and somewhat bullshitty. Here's another, unpaywalled study: http://www.people.vcu.edu/~mamcdani/Publications/McDaniel,%20Schmidt%20&%20Hunter%201988%20Job%20experience.pdf http://www.people.vcu.edu/~mamcdani/Publications/McDaniel,%2... "Results indicate that for all levels of job experience and for both low- and high-complexity jobs, the correlation between job experience and job performance is positive. " (up to 12 yrs)
valarauca1 10y ago
That's how you end up with pay by seniority rather than performance Frankly this is the fault of the employer not the union. Yes the union is the one _forcing_ the employer to enact such policies but _why_ does the union exist? Because the employer treated their employees unfairly. Unions are a bandage on a gaping wound, yes you can say the bandage isn't doing the best job. But why do you have the gaping wound to start with?
- avar 10y ago
  Whatever the historical reasons for power structures, once enacted they tend to serve their own ends. That they're disenfranchising some of their own members should be a big red flag.
JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> unions...push for fewer drivers to be voting members Leaders are incentivised to minimise the number of key supporters they need to stay in power [1]. Having a large pool of potential supporters is a plus. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectorate_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectorate_theory

bogomipz 10y ago

Can you elaborate on this: >"One tried and true union tactic is to negotiate with an employer to take money from non-powerful-union-members and give it to union members." What exactly is negotiated directly between the employer? How does this redistribution work in practice? Thanks.

tomnipotent 10y ago
My understanding is that non-union employees are required to pay union dues since they still benefit from collective bargaining. Some states & contracts have an opt-out.
- cperciva 10y ago
  That's the theory, yes. But there are plenty of examples of unions throwing some of their members (typically part-time employees or those without seniority) under a bus in order to get benefits for the rest; if the members being thrown under a bus don't even get to vote, they're even more screwed.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  I am wondering how a practice of an employer requiring non-union members to pay union dues would be legal. Doesn't this constitute a tax? Edit: it looks like this practice is not legal in right-to-work states in the US. This article seems to explain "Union security agreements" pretty well if anyone is interested: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-rights-book/chapter15-5.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-r... I wonder are non-union workers in union shops ever pressured to join?

wfo 10y ago

And it's also how you end up with weekends, benefits, worker protection, full-time employment and reasonable wages.

Flammy 10y ago
I think the point is more limited the voting body causes unequal membership. Basic worker benefits and protection can happen regardless of the number of voting members...
- bogomipz 10y ago
  That's how I inferred the OPs comment as well. Shouldn't a union that represents the majority of its workers also be majority vote?
  - pm24601 10y ago
    No -- the people most affected by the decisions should have the greater voice. If a driver drives once: 1. they have less knowledge about working conditions 2. the trip was more of a fling with being an Uber driver and not a source of income. 3. It is easier for Uber or Lyft to stack the deck with drivers who are less informed on the issues
    - charleslmunger 10y ago
      On the other hand, a union that's run by people depending on uber as a full time source of income has a significant interest in reducing the number of people driving for a "fling" or part time - more surge pricing, more guarantee minimum income from uber, less risk of low ratings leading to punitive action, since uber can't just replace them easily. My point is that while unions benefit some workers, they don't benefit all workers. It's not a black and white situation.
chronic0d 10y ago
> And it's also how you end up with weekends, benefits, worker protection, full-time employment and reasonable wages. This will only apply to the top 10% of Union workers. The workers who came late (or the majority of Uber drivers) will receive less pay, have less power, work longer hours, and fewer benefits than the "senior" drivers. Do you really think unions will help everyone? They, just like everything else in this world, are designed to benefit the top.

crdoconnor 10y ago

>That's how you end up with pay by seniority rather than performance You get pay by seniority as a compromise because it's an objective measure, it correlates with performance and it can't be gamed by either side.

icebraining 10y ago
Does that correlation hold true for jobs already based on seniority?
richdougherty 10y ago
> it correlates with performance "Results suggest that, contrary to common beliefs, job tenure is largely unrelated to job performance." http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001879113001395 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001879113...
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  "we conducted meta-analyses on the relationships of job tenure with four types of job performance: core task performance, citizenship behavior, creativity and innovative behavior, and counterproductive work behavior" Paywalled. However, the abstract ("citizenship behavior" / "creativity"... meaning what exactly?) hints that the measures are largely subjective and somewhat bullshitty. Here's another, unpaywalled study: http://www.people.vcu.edu/~mamcdani/Publications/McDaniel,%20Schmidt%20&%20Hunter%201988%20Job%20experience.pdf http://www.people.vcu.edu/~mamcdani/Publications/McDaniel,%2... "Results indicate that for all levels of job experience and for both low- and high-complexity jobs, the correlation between job experience and job performance is positive. " (up to 12 yrs)

valarauca1 10y ago

That's how you end up with pay by seniority rather than performance Frankly this is the fault of the employer not the union. Yes the union is the one _forcing_ the employer to enact such policies but _why_ does the union exist? Because the employer treated their employees unfairly. Unions are a bandage on a gaping wound, yes you can say the bandage isn't doing the best job. But why do you have the gaping wound to start with?

avar 10y ago
Whatever the historical reasons for power structures, once enacted they tend to serve their own ends. That they're disenfranchising some of their own members should be a big red flag.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> unions...push for fewer drivers to be voting members Leaders are incentivised to minimise the number of key supporters they need to stay in power [1]. Having a large pool of potential supporters is a plus. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectorate_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectorate_theory