10 ms·

How to educate me about prejudice in the open-source community

20 points by nayuki 10y ago

ebbv 10y ago
What a terrible post. It is no wonder ESR can claim to have never seen cases of discrimination with such a list of demands any victim must pass before even being heard. People do make false accusations. But you know what is a lot more common than that in the world at large? Actual discrimination. The problem is that most of the time Person A discriminates against Person B, Person A will swear up and down they have done nothing wrong and had no ill intent. That is what makes it such a difficult issue and one where people need to be open minded when hearing from people who do not share their life experience or social status. It's a lot more healthy and beneficial in my view to approach any complaints with an open mind. Obviously in the end we have to try to come to terms with the facts, but when you put up a bunch of barriers before a victim can even be heard you are protecting the status quo. Which probably sounds great if you are a person who is really comfortable, but might not be so great for someone else.
- moon_priestess 10y ago
  > People do make false accusations. But you know what is a lot more common than that in the world at large? Actual discrimination. This is really all that should need to be said. Anyone who takes ESR's claims of mental illness of accusers for granted but refuses to accept the claims of those who experience discrimination is part of the problem.
moon_priestess 10y ago
I think this post is a perfect example of bias in the open source community. Who the hell wants to put up with people like ESR who use ridiculous lists like this to determine if you've been actually been discriminated against or not? Obviously ESR is not a socially normal person. Most people can see that from his history and I don't want to beat him up for that because I don't think it's his fault: He just came that way. This post is still utter trash though and an example of the sort of attitude that pushes women and minorities out of the community.
- mjolk 10y ago
  Drop the identity politics and re-read. This is him saying "if you claim prejudice, show me the evidence and that it's not a manipulation for personal gain."
  - moon_priestess 10y ago
    Discrimination is often subtle and the people doing it rarely know they're doing it. It's often simply impossible to point to a specific email as "proof" of discrimination. That hardly means all genders and minorities are equally welcome, however. If you've ever been to a tech conference as a moderately attractive woman, you'd know how unappealing these communities can be at times. Seriously though, this is a post by self-appointed "elder" ESR telling women and minorities what is and isn't discrimination, that things they've experienced almost never really occur, how they're individually unimportant, and that most people who complain are mentally disturbed, drama queens, or political carpetbaggers. If you cannot understand why this article is a perfect example of the problems in the community, I can't help you.
    - mjolk 10y ago
      > If you've ever been to a tech conference as a moderately attractive woman, you'd know how unappealing these communities can be at times. You're inventing an anecdote and using "can be at times" to weasel out of making an actual statement. It's amusing because that's actually even mentioned in the article: > It isn’t sufficient to say, for example, “Women (or black people, or gays) can’t get their patches accepted, or are sexually/racially taunted on forums.” and then wave your hands as though the accusation itself is to be treated as evidence and anyone demanding specifics is part of the problem.
      - moon_priestess 10y ago
        > You're inventing an anecdote and using "can be at times" to weasel out of making an actual statement What statement do you want me to make? That I've experienced discrimination? Okay, "I've experienced discrimination." Are you happy now? > It's amusing because that's actually even mentioned in the article Yes, in a way that DEMONSTRATES THE PROBLEM. Instead of trusting that most people who claim discrimination are actually experiencing discrimination, ESR is demanding they submit forms in triplicate that somehow prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt so high elder ESR will spend his precious time fixing the issue. Most women and minorities do not make shit up for the sake of taking advantage of Eric Fucking Raymond. If many people are telling him there are issues, there are issues.
Certhas 10y ago
So I'm coming at this with more of a background in academia than open source culture. So these are to some degree outsider comments: If your culture makes it hard for people to enter, then demanding that people prove they belong to it before they can comment on their difficulties is an immunization strategy. Demanding strong evidence for the difficult to measure impact of social habits of the in-group on outsiders is a good way to eliminate debate. What he is saying is reasonable for dealing with discrimination within the scene (and particularly point 5 is very important). It is useless when talking about the place of the scene within wider society. Why are girls less likely to develop interests in computers? I doubt that this has anything to do with actual sexist judgements within the scene. But I do believe that it has a lot to do with the overall social norms of the scene being aligned with male gender roles. Ideally we just get rid of gender roles, but we are far from that. In the meantime we need practical solutions. Finally and most importantly: The idea that the open source community is so meritocratic as to be immune to biases that have repeatedly been shown to exist, for example in academic mathematics, is ignorant at best. Wilfully so at worst. It shows an anti-scientific mindset on this particular question that belies the "show me the evidence" rhetoric.
- ummnooo 10y ago
  "Finally and most importantly: The idea that the open source community is so meritocratic as to be immune to biases that have repeatedly been shown to exist, for example in academic mathematics, is ignorant at best. Wilfully so at worst. It shows an anti-scientific mindset on this particular question that belies the "show me the evidence" rhetoric.” YES VERY MUCH THIS!
ummnooo 10y ago
Thank goodness we are only talking about felt and percieved stigma, imagine if this guy was talking about rape, police violence or some other atrocity. Basically it’s a Gaslighing 101 list of how best not to ever see discrimination and pretend it is everyone else’s problem.
- mjolk 10y ago
  It's pretty crazy that you're trying to equate this with rape or violence.
  - moon_priestess 10y ago
    It's the exact same attitude that is often extended to rape and violence.
    - mjolk 10y ago
      The suggestion that they're the same is histrionic. If you mean "evidence being desired is wrong", then please do not show up to serve on a jury.
      - moon_priestess 10y ago
        This is exactly the same thought process used when saying most women who claim they've been raped weren't really raped and they just did it to manipulate someone. Obviously the severity of the accusation is different but it's the same thought process. Also, stop all of this talk about a jury. This is about addressing issues in a community. It's not a legal proceeding. OBVIOUSLY in a court of law we'd need strong evidence to convict someone, but we're not trying to convict an individual here. We're just trying to get people like you and ESR to stop claiming our experiences are either invalid because we're mentally ill or entirely constructed because we're trying to manipulate you. It's gaslighting exactly as ummnooo said.
        mjolk 10y ago
mjolk 10y ago
This is a great post. I'm not sure that I consider ESR to be a "tribal elder", but I imagine I'll be linking to this article at some point in the coming year. I hadn't previously read his article on "kafkatrapping" (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122), but it rings eerily true to how it feels to be the target of a manipulation attempt.
GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
Given that ESR is armed and has a history of making death threats I'm not sure it's wise to engage with him on any topic about which he may become heated.
GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
Please also remember that ESR has previously written "One was: their skin color looks fecal. The other was: their bone structure doesn’t look human. And they’re just off-reference enough to be much more creepy than if they looked less like people, like bad CGI or shambling undead in a B movie. When I paid close enough attention, these were the three basic data under the revulsion; my hindbrain thought it was surrounded by alien shit zombies."

20 points by nayuki 10y ago

ebbv 10y ago

What a terrible post. It is no wonder ESR can claim to have never seen cases of discrimination with such a list of demands any victim must pass before even being heard. People do make false accusations. But you know what is a lot more common than that in the world at large? Actual discrimination. The problem is that most of the time Person A discriminates against Person B, Person A will swear up and down they have done nothing wrong and had no ill intent. That is what makes it such a difficult issue and one where people need to be open minded when hearing from people who do not share their life experience or social status. It's a lot more healthy and beneficial in my view to approach any complaints with an open mind. Obviously in the end we have to try to come to terms with the facts, but when you put up a bunch of barriers before a victim can even be heard you are protecting the status quo. Which probably sounds great if you are a person who is really comfortable, but might not be so great for someone else.

moon_priestess 10y ago
> People do make false accusations. But you know what is a lot more common than that in the world at large? Actual discrimination. This is really all that should need to be said. Anyone who takes ESR's claims of mental illness of accusers for granted but refuses to accept the claims of those who experience discrimination is part of the problem.

moon_priestess 10y ago

I think this post is a perfect example of bias in the open source community. Who the hell wants to put up with people like ESR who use ridiculous lists like this to determine if you've been actually been discriminated against or not? Obviously ESR is not a socially normal person. Most people can see that from his history and I don't want to beat him up for that because I don't think it's his fault: He just came that way. This post is still utter trash though and an example of the sort of attitude that pushes women and minorities out of the community.

mjolk 10y ago
Drop the identity politics and re-read. This is him saying "if you claim prejudice, show me the evidence and that it's not a manipulation for personal gain."
- moon_priestess 10y ago
  Discrimination is often subtle and the people doing it rarely know they're doing it. It's often simply impossible to point to a specific email as "proof" of discrimination. That hardly means all genders and minorities are equally welcome, however. If you've ever been to a tech conference as a moderately attractive woman, you'd know how unappealing these communities can be at times. Seriously though, this is a post by self-appointed "elder" ESR telling women and minorities what is and isn't discrimination, that things they've experienced almost never really occur, how they're individually unimportant, and that most people who complain are mentally disturbed, drama queens, or political carpetbaggers. If you cannot understand why this article is a perfect example of the problems in the community, I can't help you.
  - mjolk 10y ago
    > If you've ever been to a tech conference as a moderately attractive woman, you'd know how unappealing these communities can be at times. You're inventing an anecdote and using "can be at times" to weasel out of making an actual statement. It's amusing because that's actually even mentioned in the article: > It isn’t sufficient to say, for example, “Women (or black people, or gays) can’t get their patches accepted, or are sexually/racially taunted on forums.” and then wave your hands as though the accusation itself is to be treated as evidence and anyone demanding specifics is part of the problem.
    - moon_priestess 10y ago
      > You're inventing an anecdote and using "can be at times" to weasel out of making an actual statement What statement do you want me to make? That I've experienced discrimination? Okay, "I've experienced discrimination." Are you happy now? > It's amusing because that's actually even mentioned in the article Yes, in a way that DEMONSTRATES THE PROBLEM. Instead of trusting that most people who claim discrimination are actually experiencing discrimination, ESR is demanding they submit forms in triplicate that somehow prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt so high elder ESR will spend his precious time fixing the issue. Most women and minorities do not make shit up for the sake of taking advantage of Eric Fucking Raymond. If many people are telling him there are issues, there are issues.

Certhas 10y ago

So I'm coming at this with more of a background in academia than open source culture. So these are to some degree outsider comments: If your culture makes it hard for people to enter, then demanding that people prove they belong to it before they can comment on their difficulties is an immunization strategy. Demanding strong evidence for the difficult to measure impact of social habits of the in-group on outsiders is a good way to eliminate debate. What he is saying is reasonable for dealing with discrimination within the scene (and particularly point 5 is very important). It is useless when talking about the place of the scene within wider society. Why are girls less likely to develop interests in computers? I doubt that this has anything to do with actual sexist judgements within the scene. But I do believe that it has a lot to do with the overall social norms of the scene being aligned with male gender roles. Ideally we just get rid of gender roles, but we are far from that. In the meantime we need practical solutions. Finally and most importantly: The idea that the open source community is so meritocratic as to be immune to biases that have repeatedly been shown to exist, for example in academic mathematics, is ignorant at best. Wilfully so at worst. It shows an anti-scientific mindset on this particular question that belies the "show me the evidence" rhetoric.

ummnooo 10y ago
"Finally and most importantly: The idea that the open source community is so meritocratic as to be immune to biases that have repeatedly been shown to exist, for example in academic mathematics, is ignorant at best. Wilfully so at worst. It shows an anti-scientific mindset on this particular question that belies the "show me the evidence" rhetoric.” YES VERY MUCH THIS!

ummnooo 10y ago

Thank goodness we are only talking about felt and percieved stigma, imagine if this guy was talking about rape, police violence or some other atrocity. Basically it’s a Gaslighing 101 list of how best not to ever see discrimination and pretend it is everyone else’s problem.

mjolk 10y ago
It's pretty crazy that you're trying to equate this with rape or violence.
- moon_priestess 10y ago
  It's the exact same attitude that is often extended to rape and violence.
  - mjolk 10y ago
    The suggestion that they're the same is histrionic. If you mean "evidence being desired is wrong", then please do not show up to serve on a jury.
    - moon_priestess 10y ago
      This is exactly the same thought process used when saying most women who claim they've been raped weren't really raped and they just did it to manipulate someone. Obviously the severity of the accusation is different but it's the same thought process. Also, stop all of this talk about a jury. This is about addressing issues in a community. It's not a legal proceeding. OBVIOUSLY in a court of law we'd need strong evidence to convict someone, but we're not trying to convict an individual here. We're just trying to get people like you and ESR to stop claiming our experiences are either invalid because we're mentally ill or entirely constructed because we're trying to manipulate you. It's gaslighting exactly as ummnooo said.
      - mjolk 10y ago

mjolk 10y ago

This is a great post. I'm not sure that I consider ESR to be a "tribal elder", but I imagine I'll be linking to this article at some point in the coming year. I hadn't previously read his article on "kafkatrapping" (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122), but it rings eerily true to how it feels to be the target of a manipulation attempt.

GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago

Given that ESR is armed and has a history of making death threats I'm not sure it's wise to engage with him on any topic about which he may become heated.

GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago

Please also remember that ESR has previously written "One was: their skin color looks fecal. The other was: their bone structure doesn’t look human. And they’re just off-reference enough to be much more creepy than if they looked less like people, like bad CGI or shambling undead in a B movie. When I paid close enough attention, these were the three basic data under the revulsion; my hindbrain thought it was surrounded by alien shit zombies."