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... except that the market for health services is anything but healthy in the US. That's BTW also a major reason for the exploding cost of the health care - the

... except that the market for health services is anything but healthy in the US. That's BTW also a major reason for the exploding cost of the health care - the lack of personal short term incentives isn't.

spectrum1234 10y ago
It sounds like you are agreeing with me not disagreeing... This is a short term incentive. That's why the bias here is disturbing!
- tzmudzin 10y ago
  I do not agree with your views. Apologies if I did not make myself clear here -- English is not my first language (or second.. or even third...) Let me try to reword then: 1. Free market is NOT an appropriate solution for healthcare. There are plenty of reasons for this (assymetry of information, natural monopolies etc) 2. We can argue whether the US healthcare system is based on free market principles or not. It's exploding cost is however NOT driven by the lack of short-term personal incentives, but by the failure to link the amount billed to the true cost of the service rendered. 3. Every bill from a doctor you see is a very clear short-term incentive for keeping yourself healthy -- clearly more so than a $50 discount on your monthly insurance payment.
  - hackuser 10y ago
    > 1. Free market is NOT an appropriate solution for healthcare. There are plenty of reasons for this (assymetry of information, natural monopolies etc) Also: * The free market distributes goods based on ability to pay; it's wrong to deny people health care based on their wealth. * The free market requires failures of businesses and services; that is not acceptable when people's health is involved. It's ok that the solution to bad casual gaming software vendors is that their customers are screwed and they go out of business. That's not ok for bad doctors, drugs, hospitals, etc.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      All those arguments also apply to food production. But that's a free market, and does rather well. (Yes, I know there are agricultural subsidies. It's not a perfect free market.)
      - Falkon1313 10y ago
        It's true that there's no shortage of food. In fact we're throwing away more than enough food to feed everyone in the country, around half the food that we produce. That's not very efficient. Meanwhile we stigmatize people who need food assistance, make them jump through bureaucratic hoops designed to demoralize and suppress them, demand that they present proof that their children deserve to not starve, even while incentivizing them to remain in need of food assistance. That's not very effective. So food production isn't doing 'rather well' yet, more like 'almost acceptable but needs work'. (Still much better than it was a century or two ago.)
        WalterBright 10y ago
        It's doing very well indeed if you compare it to any other system tried for producing food. It is still experiencing price declines (unlike health care). For example, steak was a luxury when I was a kid. Now, it's cheap as dirt at $6.99 a pound. I'll take its imperfections any day over the gaping holes and incredible costs in the not-so-free-market health care system.
        lovich 10y ago
        A lot of the cheapness of food is coming from using natural resources at an unsustainable rate, like draining the Ogallala Aquifer at far beyond its replenishment rate. I'd call that more along the lines of kicking the problems along for someone in the future to deal with all at once and not "doing very well"
        WalterBright 10y ago
  - Ded7xSEoPKYNsDd 10y ago
    > Every bill from a doctor you see is a very clear short-term incentive for keeping yourself healthy -- clearly more so than a $50 discount on your monthly insurance payment. It's also an incentive to avoid going to the doctor unless you really need to. Something that I'm not sure helps with healthcare costs in the long run.

spectrum1234 10y ago

It sounds like you are agreeing with me not disagreeing... This is a short term incentive. That's why the bias here is disturbing!

tzmudzin 10y ago
I do not agree with your views. Apologies if I did not make myself clear here -- English is not my first language (or second.. or even third...) Let me try to reword then: 1. Free market is NOT an appropriate solution for healthcare. There are plenty of reasons for this (assymetry of information, natural monopolies etc) 2. We can argue whether the US healthcare system is based on free market principles or not. It's exploding cost is however NOT driven by the lack of short-term personal incentives, but by the failure to link the amount billed to the true cost of the service rendered. 3. Every bill from a doctor you see is a very clear short-term incentive for keeping yourself healthy -- clearly more so than a $50 discount on your monthly insurance payment.
- hackuser 10y ago
  > 1. Free market is NOT an appropriate solution for healthcare. There are plenty of reasons for this (assymetry of information, natural monopolies etc) Also: * The free market distributes goods based on ability to pay; it's wrong to deny people health care based on their wealth. * The free market requires failures of businesses and services; that is not acceptable when people's health is involved. It's ok that the solution to bad casual gaming software vendors is that their customers are screwed and they go out of business. That's not ok for bad doctors, drugs, hospitals, etc.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    All those arguments also apply to food production. But that's a free market, and does rather well. (Yes, I know there are agricultural subsidies. It's not a perfect free market.)
    - Falkon1313 10y ago
      It's true that there's no shortage of food. In fact we're throwing away more than enough food to feed everyone in the country, around half the food that we produce. That's not very efficient. Meanwhile we stigmatize people who need food assistance, make them jump through bureaucratic hoops designed to demoralize and suppress them, demand that they present proof that their children deserve to not starve, even while incentivizing them to remain in need of food assistance. That's not very effective. So food production isn't doing 'rather well' yet, more like 'almost acceptable but needs work'. (Still much better than it was a century or two ago.)
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        It's doing very well indeed if you compare it to any other system tried for producing food. It is still experiencing price declines (unlike health care). For example, steak was a luxury when I was a kid. Now, it's cheap as dirt at $6.99 a pound. I'll take its imperfections any day over the gaping holes and incredible costs in the not-so-free-market health care system.
        lovich 10y ago
        A lot of the cheapness of food is coming from using natural resources at an unsustainable rate, like draining the Ogallala Aquifer at far beyond its replenishment rate. I'd call that more along the lines of kicking the problems along for someone in the future to deal with all at once and not "doing very well"
        WalterBright 10y ago
- Ded7xSEoPKYNsDd 10y ago
  > Every bill from a doctor you see is a very clear short-term incentive for keeping yourself healthy -- clearly more so than a $50 discount on your monthly insurance payment. It's also an incentive to avoid going to the doctor unless you really need to. Something that I'm not sure helps with healthcare costs in the long run.