6 ms·

Macaque monkeys have the anatomy for human speech, so why can’t they speak?

58 points by hyperpallium 10y ago

Pica_soO 10y ago
Because they lack the break through "retardation". And yes, for a monkey, unnecessary sounds, attracting predators are a handicap. Imagine if vocalization was a disease result - a multi host disease that trys to attract predators by creating constant loud vocalization of thought.
- user5994461 10y ago
  It can also signal predators to the tribe.
- qbrass 10y ago
  >Imagine if vocalization was a disease result - a multi host disease that trys to attract predators by creating constant loud vocalization of thought. Then defeating predators you can no longer hide from by being quiet becomes an evolutionary advantage. Martial arts anime makes sense now.
- mrob 10y ago
  Monkeys can climb trees, which makes vocalization much less of a handicap. Gibbons are especially noisy, eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3cD1Nd302k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3cD1Nd302k
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ebbv 10y ago
  Monkeys make "unnecessary" sounds all the time. It's not like a group of monkeys just sits there silently and only makes absolutely necessary sounds. Plus as other commenters have pointed out, speech would let much more useful and detailed communications possible.
  - Pica_soO 10y ago
    Okay, i was wrong :D
ErikVandeWater 10y ago
> Our findings imply that the evolution of human speech capabilities required neural changes rather than modifications of vocal anatomy. They have the anatomy to speak except for the brain anatomy. _rolls eyes_
ebbv 10y ago
I suspect the answer is similar to why a macaque can't play billiards even though it is physically capable of it. It's not like macaque monkeys don't "speak" to each other, they do make sounds that indicate certain things that other monkeys understand. They just don't have the cognitive ability for language. It's too complex and abstract for them. Similarly, they can manipulate a pool cue and even knock balls around a table with it potentially. But they can't actually understand the rules or play the game effectively, even though they can be taught rules of much more simple "games" like "press the red button and get a treat, press the blue button and get nothing."
- tikwidd 10y ago
  Other primates already have the anatomy required for natural language more or less, namely arms and hands. Signed languages are as complete and expressive as spoken languages, and there is speculation [1] that spoken and signed language use the same underlying grammatical facility or "language organ". Kinda OT, but this got me thinking about why human evolution has preferred spoken over signed language - why did spoken language evolve as the favourite mode when we already had perfectly good anatomy for signed language? Spoken language has some obvious disadvantages that I can think of: * limited iconicity compared to sign * not good for communicating while hunting * less private * speech production requires fine articulations and motor control, takes longer to learn, extends adolescence? * "The positioning of the larynx deep in the throat, and the tongue far enough low and back to articulate a range of vowels, also compromised breathing and chewing. Presumably the communicative benefits outweighed the physiological costs." [2] Spoken has some advantages over sign though: * communication over distance * sound-based iconicity/ possible * can communicate with poor vision * can communicate while performing manual tasks (this is probably the biggest one) Maybe early humans used a combination of both depending on the situation, and as the abstraction capability of the brain increased, spoken became the (hearing) norm. Either way, it seems like anatomical explanations for language evolution aren't very useful. Female Cosmetic Coalitions[3] is an interesting theory from anthropology which relates evolution of natural language with in-group trust. [1] http://www.lscp.net/persons/peperkamp/Peperkamp_Mehler_(1999)_Signed_and_Spoken_Language.pdf http://www.lscp.net/persons/peperkamp/Peperkamp_Mehler_(1999... [2] The Language Instinct, Steven Pinker [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_cosmetic_coalitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_cosmetic_coalitions
zw123456 10y ago
So why can parrots be taught to speak? Of course they do not understand what they are saying but they can be trained to say words. Monkeys can be trained to do some pretty complex things in comparison to what a bird can do, it seems to me monkeys are smarter than birds. So it seems like there is some other part of the explanation that is not completely figured out here.
- eutectic 10y ago
  Parrots can definitely understand words.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- woofyman 10y ago
  >not understand what they are saying but they can be trained to say words. Not necessarily true. http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatbirdblog/2011/06/10/do-parrots-understand-what-they-say-yes-according-to-a-new-study/#.WGl1jDQ8LCQ http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatbirdblog/2011/06/10/do-par... Edit: fix link
  - jplasmeier 10y ago
    I think you've posted the wrong link...
    - woofyman 10y ago
      Thank you
  - innocentoldguy 10y ago
    I don't see the relevance. Great album though.
    - woofyman 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
wbhart 10y ago
I had read that the spinal cord of monkeys and the small hole through which it must pass, does not permit the many nerves that are required to control the speech apparatus with sufficient accuracy for intelligible speech. I was surprised to find the article didn't mention this issue at all, either as an urban myth, or as a fact of anatomy. Has thinking moved on when it comes to this issue? Are Macaque monkeys somehow different in this regard?
jcoffland 10y ago
People should use this recording to ask their partners to consent to marriage. It says, our union will be both creepy and scientific in a way that is usually difficult to convey.
nabla9 10y ago
Descartes thought that monkeys could talk if they wanted to but they didn't because they would be forced to work.
- elihu 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(chacma_baboon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(chacma_baboon)
- aswanson 10y ago
  Maybe they're smarter than us taller, less agile, weaker primates after all.
- cokernel 10y ago
  I'd be interested in a citation for this, if you have one handy. I've read that he wrote about this in a letter but I haven't been able to find it. The closest I've been able to find is (via WP): > The word [orangutan] comes from Bontius (1631, Hist. Nat. et Med. Ind. Orient.) who claimed that the Javanese had informed him that orang-utans could talk, ‘but do not wish to, lest they should be compelled to labour’. Dellios, Paulette (2005). A Lexical Odyssey from the Malay World. The Proceedings of the European Integration-Between Tradition and Modernity Congress, Editura Universităţii "Petru Maior", Volume Number 1, 2005, ISSN 1844-2048, pp. 460-463. http://www.upm.ro/facultati_departamente/stiinte_litere/conferinte/situl_integrare_europeana/Lucrari/Delios.pdf http://www.upm.ro/facultati_departamente/stiinte_litere/conf... Bontius's book looks like the sort of thing Descartes would have read, so I'd be interested in reading his reaction.
  - nabla9 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes >Mr. Clerselier has written me that you are expecting from him my Meditations... in order to present them to the queen of the land. ...If I had only been as wise as they say the savages persuaded themselves that the monkeys were, I never would have become known as a maker of books: Since it is said that they imagined that the monkeys could indeed speak, if they wanted to, but that they chose not to so lest they be forced to work. And since I had not the same prudence to abstain from writing, I now have neither as much liesure nor as much peace as I would have had if I had kept quiet. But since the mistake has already been made, and since I am now known by an infinity of people at the academy, who look askance at my writings and scour them for means of harming me, I do have great hope of being known to persons of great merit, whose power and virtue could protect me. >Letter to Pierre Chanut (Nov. 1, 1646) as quoted by Amir Aczel, Descartes' Secret Notebook (2005) citing René Descartes: Correspondance avec Elizabeth et autres lettres (1989) ed., Jean-Marie and M. Beysaade, pp. 245-246.
Manglano 10y ago
Good speculative fiction story: Extraterrestrial species of immortal primates visits Earth, deploys the substrate for Wernicke & Broca's areas into a species of speechless apes, to see the invention of Shakespeare.
- wyager 10y ago
  As I recall, this was more or less a plot element in Daniel Keys Morgan's "Tales of the Continuing Time" sci-fi series. Good series.
lisivka 10y ago
Gelada baboons can talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPtcNucxiMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPtcNucxiMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1q-V2b1Sc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1q-V2b1Sc
zw123456 10y ago
I have to do another post on this. http://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.1974668 http://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.1974668 This has been a pet theory of mine monkeys hearing is not very good below 8khz, down as much as 60db in the 4khz and below range where human speech primarily resides. Maybe they are basically hard of hearing in our spectral range? I wonder if anyone ever thought about making a special hearing aid for them to boost the low frequencies. Or maybe move the human speech up to their range (they can hears as high as 45Khz while humans cut off at 20khz). Maybe you could teach them to speak but it would be super high pitched and another device could shift it back down. Like a frequency up and down converter.
- devoply 10y ago
  I like the idea of a universal monkey translator.
  - zw123456 10y ago
    I know right, I want to build one :)
- eternalban 10y ago
  Can't dig up a link but distinctly remember reading about John Lilly shifting frequencies to communicate with Dolphins.

58 points by hyperpallium 10y ago

Because they lack the break through "retardation". And yes, for a monkey, unnecessary sounds, attracting predators are a handicap. Imagine if vocalization was a disease result - a multi host disease that trys to attract predators by creating constant loud vocalization of thought.

user5994461 10y ago
It can also signal predators to the tribe.
qbrass 10y ago
>Imagine if vocalization was a disease result - a multi host disease that trys to attract predators by creating constant loud vocalization of thought. Then defeating predators you can no longer hide from by being quiet becomes an evolutionary advantage. Martial arts anime makes sense now.
mrob 10y ago
Monkeys can climb trees, which makes vocalization much less of a handicap. Gibbons are especially noisy, eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3cD1Nd302k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3cD1Nd302k
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ebbv 10y ago
Monkeys make "unnecessary" sounds all the time. It's not like a group of monkeys just sits there silently and only makes absolutely necessary sounds. Plus as other commenters have pointed out, speech would let much more useful and detailed communications possible.
- Pica_soO 10y ago
  Okay, i was wrong :D

ErikVandeWater 10y ago

> Our findings imply that the evolution of human speech capabilities required neural changes rather than modifications of vocal anatomy. They have the anatomy to speak except for the brain anatomy. _rolls eyes_

ebbv 10y ago

I suspect the answer is similar to why a macaque can't play billiards even though it is physically capable of it. It's not like macaque monkeys don't "speak" to each other, they do make sounds that indicate certain things that other monkeys understand. They just don't have the cognitive ability for language. It's too complex and abstract for them. Similarly, they can manipulate a pool cue and even knock balls around a table with it potentially. But they can't actually understand the rules or play the game effectively, even though they can be taught rules of much more simple "games" like "press the red button and get a treat, press the blue button and get nothing."

tikwidd 10y ago
Other primates already have the anatomy required for natural language more or less, namely arms and hands. Signed languages are as complete and expressive as spoken languages, and there is speculation [1] that spoken and signed language use the same underlying grammatical facility or "language organ". Kinda OT, but this got me thinking about why human evolution has preferred spoken over signed language - why did spoken language evolve as the favourite mode when we already had perfectly good anatomy for signed language? Spoken language has some obvious disadvantages that I can think of: * limited iconicity compared to sign * not good for communicating while hunting * less private * speech production requires fine articulations and motor control, takes longer to learn, extends adolescence? * "The positioning of the larynx deep in the throat, and the tongue far enough low and back to articulate a range of vowels, also compromised breathing and chewing. Presumably the communicative benefits outweighed the physiological costs." [2] Spoken has some advantages over sign though: * communication over distance * sound-based iconicity/ possible * can communicate with poor vision * can communicate while performing manual tasks (this is probably the biggest one) Maybe early humans used a combination of both depending on the situation, and as the abstraction capability of the brain increased, spoken became the (hearing) norm. Either way, it seems like anatomical explanations for language evolution aren't very useful. Female Cosmetic Coalitions[3] is an interesting theory from anthropology which relates evolution of natural language with in-group trust. [1] http://www.lscp.net/persons/peperkamp/Peperkamp_Mehler_(1999)_Signed_and_Spoken_Language.pdf http://www.lscp.net/persons/peperkamp/Peperkamp_Mehler_(1999... [2] The Language Instinct, Steven Pinker [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_cosmetic_coalitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_cosmetic_coalitions

zw123456 10y ago

So why can parrots be taught to speak? Of course they do not understand what they are saying but they can be trained to say words. Monkeys can be trained to do some pretty complex things in comparison to what a bird can do, it seems to me monkeys are smarter than birds. So it seems like there is some other part of the explanation that is not completely figured out here.

eutectic 10y ago
Parrots can definitely understand words.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
woofyman 10y ago
>not understand what they are saying but they can be trained to say words. Not necessarily true. http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatbirdblog/2011/06/10/do-parrots-understand-what-they-say-yes-according-to-a-new-study/#.WGl1jDQ8LCQ http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatbirdblog/2011/06/10/do-par... Edit: fix link
- jplasmeier 10y ago
  I think you've posted the wrong link...
  - woofyman 10y ago
    Thank you
- innocentoldguy 10y ago
  I don't see the relevance. Great album though.
  - woofyman 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

wbhart 10y ago

I had read that the spinal cord of monkeys and the small hole through which it must pass, does not permit the many nerves that are required to control the speech apparatus with sufficient accuracy for intelligible speech. I was surprised to find the article didn't mention this issue at all, either as an urban myth, or as a fact of anatomy. Has thinking moved on when it comes to this issue? Are Macaque monkeys somehow different in this regard?

jcoffland 10y ago

People should use this recording to ask their partners to consent to marriage. It says, our union will be both creepy and scientific in a way that is usually difficult to convey.

nabla9 10y ago

Descartes thought that monkeys could talk if they wanted to but they didn't because they would be forced to work.

elihu 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(chacma_baboon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(chacma_baboon)
aswanson 10y ago
Maybe they're smarter than us taller, less agile, weaker primates after all.
cokernel 10y ago
I'd be interested in a citation for this, if you have one handy. I've read that he wrote about this in a letter but I haven't been able to find it. The closest I've been able to find is (via WP): > The word [orangutan] comes from Bontius (1631, Hist. Nat. et Med. Ind. Orient.) who claimed that the Javanese had informed him that orang-utans could talk, ‘but do not wish to, lest they should be compelled to labour’. Dellios, Paulette (2005). A Lexical Odyssey from the Malay World. The Proceedings of the European Integration-Between Tradition and Modernity Congress, Editura Universităţii "Petru Maior", Volume Number 1, 2005, ISSN 1844-2048, pp. 460-463. http://www.upm.ro/facultati_departamente/stiinte_litere/conferinte/situl_integrare_europeana/Lucrari/Delios.pdf http://www.upm.ro/facultati_departamente/stiinte_litere/conf... Bontius's book looks like the sort of thing Descartes would have read, so I'd be interested in reading his reaction.
- nabla9 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes >Mr. Clerselier has written me that you are expecting from him my Meditations... in order to present them to the queen of the land. ...If I had only been as wise as they say the savages persuaded themselves that the monkeys were, I never would have become known as a maker of books: Since it is said that they imagined that the monkeys could indeed speak, if they wanted to, but that they chose not to so lest they be forced to work. And since I had not the same prudence to abstain from writing, I now have neither as much liesure nor as much peace as I would have had if I had kept quiet. But since the mistake has already been made, and since I am now known by an infinity of people at the academy, who look askance at my writings and scour them for means of harming me, I do have great hope of being known to persons of great merit, whose power and virtue could protect me. >Letter to Pierre Chanut (Nov. 1, 1646) as quoted by Amir Aczel, Descartes' Secret Notebook (2005) citing René Descartes: Correspondance avec Elizabeth et autres lettres (1989) ed., Jean-Marie and M. Beysaade, pp. 245-246.

Manglano 10y ago

Good speculative fiction story: Extraterrestrial species of immortal primates visits Earth, deploys the substrate for Wernicke & Broca's areas into a species of speechless apes, to see the invention of Shakespeare.

wyager 10y ago
As I recall, this was more or less a plot element in Daniel Keys Morgan's "Tales of the Continuing Time" sci-fi series. Good series.

lisivka 10y ago

Gelada baboons can talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPtcNucxiMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPtcNucxiMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1q-V2b1Sc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1q-V2b1Sc

zw123456 10y ago

I have to do another post on this. http://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.1974668 http://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.1974668 This has been a pet theory of mine monkeys hearing is not very good below 8khz, down as much as 60db in the 4khz and below range where human speech primarily resides. Maybe they are basically hard of hearing in our spectral range? I wonder if anyone ever thought about making a special hearing aid for them to boost the low frequencies. Or maybe move the human speech up to their range (they can hears as high as 45Khz while humans cut off at 20khz). Maybe you could teach them to speak but it would be super high pitched and another device could shift it back down. Like a frequency up and down converter.

devoply 10y ago
I like the idea of a universal monkey translator.
- zw123456 10y ago
  I know right, I want to build one :)
eternalban 10y ago
Can't dig up a link but distinctly remember reading about John Lilly shifting frequencies to communicate with Dolphins.