4 ms·

I'm preaching to the choir, but for the sake of visibility — there is a very inspiring fable that puts aging into another context: http://www.nickbostrom.com/fa

I'm preaching to the choir, but for the sake of visibility — there is a very inspiring fable that puts aging into another context: http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html

siavosh 10y ago
I'm curious if proponents of 'immortality' do not fear a world where there are tremendous social (not to mention environmental) consequences to significantly extended life/health-spans? If you are under a certain age in any country (say <30) do you not feel like you live in a world ruled by the conservatism and culture of an older generation? These prior generations have the head start to protect their status quo. Imagining every generation persisting on top of another, all sorts of strange and dark likelihoods fill my imagination. Most peoples' formative life views develop in a certain brief segment of their lives, from which their subsequent experiences simply reinforce. It's sadly a rare few that continually adapt and evolve their views with an open mind. A population of 7 billion+ immortals where the vast majority are set in their ways is terrifying, and being born into such an oppressive world would fill me with dread.
- tormeh 10y ago
  Yes, immortality would have to be accompanied by neuroplasticity drugs. The biggest benefit of neuroplasticity drugs, btw, would not be that users would acquire new knowledge, but that they would forget outdated knowledge. As I get older (and I'm still relatively young) I observe that I keep remembering things that are wrong and sometimes I even base decisions on that outdated knowledge.
- haliax 10y ago
  Even so, given the option to live forever, I wouldn't forgo it so that you could avoid said dread. Regardless, I don't think that your reasoning about people being set in their ways is valid given significantly longer life or healthspans. A lot of existing conservatism is from people with families (don't rock the boat so I can focus on raising my young!) and people who are suffering the ill effects of aging (don't rock the boat so that I can retire in peace!). The first group will likely diminish if we have longer healthspans (or else we'll run up against the barriers of overpopulation). Even if not, longer healthspans mean a longer period where people are neither raising families nor mainly preoccupied with living with advanced aging. As a result, I don't think the effect you're describing will be a significant one.
- kiba 10y ago
  If you are under a certain age in any country (say <30) do you not feel like you live in a world ruled by the conservatism and culture of an older generation? These prior generations have the head start to protect their status quo. Imagining every generation persisting on top of another, all sorts of strange and dark likelihoods fill my imagination. Just because they have a desire to protect the status quo does not actually mean that they can protect the status quo. A population of 7 billion+ immortals where the vast majority are set in their ways is terrifying, and being born into such an oppressive world would fill me with dread. As opposed to having humans who can't remember the past because the experience of the old generation passed away? Those who don't remember the lesson of history are doomed to repeat it? Yes, the world will be confronted with new problems that we don't have to deal with before. We may have to seriously consider population control and other measures. But does anybody seriously want to go to the old status quo where old people are given serious diseases like cancers, Alzheimer and heart attacks, where they are forced to suffer until they finally die, often not of their own choice?
  - siavosh 10y ago
    Some thoughts: - I can also imagine a world where the 0.01% continue to accumulate wealth, they will certainly have a growing ability to protect their position. The world has finite resources, when "immortality" is discovered will certainly have an effect on wealth and power distributions. - I would argue many people today forget what happens to them/society within years well within their lifetimes. - "Population control / other measures" -- hence my dread. - I think improving quality of life is very different than extending it into multi-generational periods.
    - yegortimoshenko 10y ago
      I don't think wealth accumulation is an issue. However, heritage is what heavily contributes to wealth accumulation. With aging gone, and subsequently, heritage heavily delayed, wealth distribution gap will become smaller, not larger. Life expectancy increases tend to decrease birth rate. And with Elon Musk currently working on colonizing Mars, and seasteading making some progress, there will likely be a lot of place to live in by the time we work out aging. Actually, if both fail, there is a place for 6 billion more people on Earth. You're afraid of your own prejudices about something that isn't even here yet. And I don't understand your use of word "immortality": it is aging we are discussing here, a condition that causes people to die, often in misery and pain over long periods of time. I think it is a very humane, global, noble cause, and I honestly don't understand how you can be so cynical about it.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- orangecat 10y ago
  Suppose that you lived in a world where aging didn't exist, and people typically lived for hundreds of years. (There would still be deaths due to accidents, violence, and occasional disease). And suppose it had exactly the problems you're imagining, where 800 year old oligarchs had accumulated lots of money and power and were preventing changes that younger generations wanted. Would your proposed solution be to release a virus that would gradually cripple everyone's bodies and minds over several decades before eventually killing them?
  - gurkendoktor 10y ago
    > Suppose that you lived in a world where aging didn't exist, and people typically lived for hundreds of years. (There would still be deaths due to accidents, violence, and occasional disease). I'm sure Sci-Fi novels have explored this topic in detail, but when I read this I don't worry about older conservative generations - I worry that everyone will become paralysed by conservatism, including young people. Taking drugs, partying all night, riding a motorcycle, leaving your home at all. Why would you risk centuries of your lifetime just for a little thrill? Wouldn't it be safer to stay at home browsing the web? You can still have fun next century, no need to rush it... Still, I don't have a good answer to your question.
    - scotty79 10y ago
      > Why would you risk centuries of your lifetime just for a little thrill? Why would you risk decades of your lifetime just for a little thrill? I don't some people do for some reasons that are completely beyond my understanding.
    - charlieflowers 10y ago
      Isaac Asimov explored this in his Foundation novels ... particularly with the Solarians. It's interesting to see where he went with the idea.
- greenhatman 10y ago
  >A population of 7 billion+ immortals where the vast majority are set in their ways is terrifying. Maybe. But not as terrifying as actually dying. Frankly, I'm willing to deal with any problems arising from longer and/or indefinite lifespans, more than I'm willing to deal with the impermanence of life.

siavosh 10y ago

I'm curious if proponents of 'immortality' do not fear a world where there are tremendous social (not to mention environmental) consequences to significantly extended life/health-spans? If you are under a certain age in any country (say <30) do you not feel like you live in a world ruled by the conservatism and culture of an older generation? These prior generations have the head start to protect their status quo. Imagining every generation persisting on top of another, all sorts of strange and dark likelihoods fill my imagination. Most peoples' formative life views develop in a certain brief segment of their lives, from which their subsequent experiences simply reinforce. It's sadly a rare few that continually adapt and evolve their views with an open mind. A population of 7 billion+ immortals where the vast majority are set in their ways is terrifying, and being born into such an oppressive world would fill me with dread.

tormeh 10y ago
Yes, immortality would have to be accompanied by neuroplasticity drugs. The biggest benefit of neuroplasticity drugs, btw, would not be that users would acquire new knowledge, but that they would forget outdated knowledge. As I get older (and I'm still relatively young) I observe that I keep remembering things that are wrong and sometimes I even base decisions on that outdated knowledge.
haliax 10y ago
Even so, given the option to live forever, I wouldn't forgo it so that you could avoid said dread. Regardless, I don't think that your reasoning about people being set in their ways is valid given significantly longer life or healthspans. A lot of existing conservatism is from people with families (don't rock the boat so I can focus on raising my young!) and people who are suffering the ill effects of aging (don't rock the boat so that I can retire in peace!). The first group will likely diminish if we have longer healthspans (or else we'll run up against the barriers of overpopulation). Even if not, longer healthspans mean a longer period where people are neither raising families nor mainly preoccupied with living with advanced aging. As a result, I don't think the effect you're describing will be a significant one.
kiba 10y ago
If you are under a certain age in any country (say <30) do you not feel like you live in a world ruled by the conservatism and culture of an older generation? These prior generations have the head start to protect their status quo. Imagining every generation persisting on top of another, all sorts of strange and dark likelihoods fill my imagination. Just because they have a desire to protect the status quo does not actually mean that they can protect the status quo. A population of 7 billion+ immortals where the vast majority are set in their ways is terrifying, and being born into such an oppressive world would fill me with dread. As opposed to having humans who can't remember the past because the experience of the old generation passed away? Those who don't remember the lesson of history are doomed to repeat it? Yes, the world will be confronted with new problems that we don't have to deal with before. We may have to seriously consider population control and other measures. But does anybody seriously want to go to the old status quo where old people are given serious diseases like cancers, Alzheimer and heart attacks, where they are forced to suffer until they finally die, often not of their own choice?
- siavosh 10y ago
  Some thoughts: - I can also imagine a world where the 0.01% continue to accumulate wealth, they will certainly have a growing ability to protect their position. The world has finite resources, when "immortality" is discovered will certainly have an effect on wealth and power distributions. - I would argue many people today forget what happens to them/society within years well within their lifetimes. - "Population control / other measures" -- hence my dread. - I think improving quality of life is very different than extending it into multi-generational periods.
  - yegortimoshenko 10y ago
    I don't think wealth accumulation is an issue. However, heritage is what heavily contributes to wealth accumulation. With aging gone, and subsequently, heritage heavily delayed, wealth distribution gap will become smaller, not larger. Life expectancy increases tend to decrease birth rate. And with Elon Musk currently working on colonizing Mars, and seasteading making some progress, there will likely be a lot of place to live in by the time we work out aging. Actually, if both fail, there is a place for 6 billion more people on Earth. You're afraid of your own prejudices about something that isn't even here yet. And I don't understand your use of word "immortality": it is aging we are discussing here, a condition that causes people to die, often in misery and pain over long periods of time. I think it is a very humane, global, noble cause, and I honestly don't understand how you can be so cynical about it.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
orangecat 10y ago
Suppose that you lived in a world where aging didn't exist, and people typically lived for hundreds of years. (There would still be deaths due to accidents, violence, and occasional disease). And suppose it had exactly the problems you're imagining, where 800 year old oligarchs had accumulated lots of money and power and were preventing changes that younger generations wanted. Would your proposed solution be to release a virus that would gradually cripple everyone's bodies and minds over several decades before eventually killing them?
- gurkendoktor 10y ago
  > Suppose that you lived in a world where aging didn't exist, and people typically lived for hundreds of years. (There would still be deaths due to accidents, violence, and occasional disease). I'm sure Sci-Fi novels have explored this topic in detail, but when I read this I don't worry about older conservative generations - I worry that everyone will become paralysed by conservatism, including young people. Taking drugs, partying all night, riding a motorcycle, leaving your home at all. Why would you risk centuries of your lifetime just for a little thrill? Wouldn't it be safer to stay at home browsing the web? You can still have fun next century, no need to rush it... Still, I don't have a good answer to your question.
  - scotty79 10y ago
    > Why would you risk centuries of your lifetime just for a little thrill? Why would you risk decades of your lifetime just for a little thrill? I don't some people do for some reasons that are completely beyond my understanding.
  - charlieflowers 10y ago
    Isaac Asimov explored this in his Foundation novels ... particularly with the Solarians. It's interesting to see where he went with the idea.
greenhatman 10y ago
>A population of 7 billion+ immortals where the vast majority are set in their ways is terrifying. Maybe. But not as terrifying as actually dying. Frankly, I'm willing to deal with any problems arising from longer and/or indefinite lifespans, more than I'm willing to deal with the impermanence of life.